WadeTheScrapper

Proof The Market System Is Broken

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The thing is that when something like that gets implemented it almost always ends up with the best stuff in the game not being available any other way because otherwise nobody will play it.

Also a big thing to keep in mind is, since trades are anonymous the devs have the option to remove items and inject money into the market without anyone noticing if prices drop particularly low. They can influence the ingame economy completely unseen by the players.

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10 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

The thing is that when something like that gets implemented it almost always ends up with the best stuff in the game not being available any other way because otherwise nobody will play it.

Also a big thing to keep in mind is, since trades are anonymous the devs have the option to remove items and inject money into the market without anyone noticing if prices drop particularly low. They can influence the ingame economy completely unseen by the players.

Traders anonymous? Check your purchase history. You can see the name. Your claim is either a new ninja nerf from devs I didn't know of, or you simply never checked your history of purchases to see the name of the buyer/seller.

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7 hours ago, Aetrion said:

The thing is that when something like that gets implemented it almost always ends up with the best stuff in the game not being available any other way because otherwise nobody will play it.

Also a big thing to keep in mind is, since trades are anonymous the devs have the option to remove items and inject money into the market without anyone noticing if prices drop particularly low. They can influence the ingame economy completely unseen by the players.

There is always a "tipping point" when it comes to markets and items such as a one of a kind well known item will be looked at for its bragging rights or its ability to hold value or even raise its price but when multiples of the same thing come about eventually no matter what we do the price will go down because of saturation and we are seeing that now with purples even when so many people are still looking to make or buy there first purple.

Dev intervention on this scale is impossible as the items created are there for the world to see and you will get your "chancers" bidding low and your quick sellers selling low to outbid others for the quick cash.

Apologies for my avatar as it has offended someone so will change it this weekend :)

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lol another lazy shitters expecting to have everything handed to them on a silver platter.

 

Idk about you but ive played for a week without paying a dime and got my first legendary (reaper) just today. Stop whining and play the game.

 

I agree partly about the market though, copper dropped so low that theres no point selling it anymore.

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The low prices on items in market, makes it inadviseable to craft anything.. you are better off selling copper and parts than crafting the items yourself(unless you can be lucky and buy the materials at exceptionally low prices in market

if you could sell the stuff you win to the system with a minimum price it would be a way to keep currency in game up, i think

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48 minutes ago, TacticalImouto said:

lol another lazy shitters expecting to have everything handed to them on a silver platter.

 

Idk about you but ive played for a week without paying a dime and got my first legendary (reaper) just today. Stop whining and play the game.

 

I agree partly about the market though, copper dropped so low that theres no point selling it anymore.

Lets see how much your reapers worth in a week lol and as for a silver platter..i have plenty of gold and a x3 equaliser cooled build that is so much fun that i earned through playing just like you but all you hard work in a few weeks will be easily attainable to anyone for a lot cheaper.

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1 hour ago, Grim_Brit said:

Lets see how much your reapers worth in a week lol and as for a silver platter..i have plenty of gold and a x3 equaliser cooled build that is so much fun that i earned through playing just like you but all you hard work in a few weeks will be easily attainable to anyone for a lot cheaper.

And what is ur point excatly?
A business wanting money for their product is a bad thing?

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Reaper price yesterday was around 3.9k to 4k. Today its at 3.3k. The drop in value is incredibly fast. Supply increased due to players seeing the high price and then rushed to sell which then dropped the price and value. 

Even the 88mm which were selling at an average of above 500 last week is now seeing 450 low.

The high supply and low demand is a good thing for buyers but if you're a seller expect lesser profits. This game's market is a buyers market which all you need is patience. Eventually the impatient sellers needing coins fast will drop the prices themselves. 

The market crash is purely the players fault. I am sure the devs won't do anything to influence the price currently. But the Devs can introduce time limited items like legendaries that rotate in availability on monthly basis and event rewards like weapons which can be an investment for players. This rarity and unavaliability in the market all the time in huge quantity is one way players can try to generate income. 

But for now we are in the process of reaching the rock bottom prices for each item in the market. After that happens, things will be stable and we can see the real value of each item. 

Edited by NamelesxKing
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8 hours ago, TacticalImouto said:

And what is ur point excatly?
A business wanting money for their product is a bad thing?

My point is that saturation = depreciation 

Not long from now it will take players half the time for half the cash to reach what we have done working twice as hard for twice as much.

The next week or so it will be epics that take the hit badly and once they are saturated enough in the market  the creation of legends will be so much cheaper/easier that the hit will happen to them.

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On 6/17/2017 at 3:41 PM, Nano606 said:

 

Dengar - The 'grind' is much less now than it was in the CBT due to the 400% bonus.  That never existed previously, so you had to grind much harder to get anywhere, i am enjoying getting 8-9k XP in a match where i kill 2 people (400% bonus plus bling items adding to XP gained).  So much faster now. 

Yea there is that 60k xp boost, but before the xp requirement for levels was 4 times less that what it is now. So now, daily, you level up as it was in CBT and then after you pass 60k xp you level 4 times slower.

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Only a idiot does not know whats on the horizon at this rate. The prices in the market will either:

  • A) Get insanely expensive because people are desperate for money and need to cover workbench costs
  • B) Get dirp cheap making items practically worthless, which in turn creates a more pay2win environment because these such items can only be afford by those who open their wallet

Where will you be when the economy dies?

 

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On 6/25/2017 at 11:21 PM, Trigger_HappY said:

Only a idiot does not know whats on the horizon at this rate. The prices in the market will either:

  • A) Get insanely expensive because people are desperate for money and need to cover workbench costs
  • B) Get dirp cheap making items practically worthless, which in turn creates a more pay2win environment because these such items can only be afford by those who open their wallet

Where will you be when the economy dies?

 

Here, with 20$ to spend, and hoping that it'll crash to option 2, and buy 6 of everything for my 20 bucks :D

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On 6/17/2017 at 7:53 AM, WadeTheScrapper said:

and eventually everything will be down to 0.01 for selling but the buying will be higher which will force people to either quit playing or dump real money into the game people who do stay around will end up dumping 100s of bucks into the game... so it is free toplay if all you use is the white common crafting parts they rest only people who dump money in will get any of the other crafting parts the blues and higher....  I am guessing this game will be dead in 1-2 years

Gonna try to make this simple, most of you are on to something but don't quite get the math behind it. Yes the market is crashing, it will only get worse, this is why the devs are blue cogging raids, nerfing gas and copper. Why the recommended power scores are unrealistic. This is why leviathan is near impossible to farm esp pick up, and nearly every other thing players are complaining about right now. This is done on purpose guys, the market is their paycheck. Targem has never put out a blockbuster title, or one that's even noticed much. Their games usually hit the super save bin quicker than taco bell gets digested. Now, they got with gaijin and their name is next to war thunder and world of tanks, two games with an IMMENSE player base. See Targem had this great idea to create a true player driven market. Gamers for gamers if you will and it sounded great except they didnt understand markets at all. This game is a true depiction of how worthless game items are and the fools who spend money on them. In real life, or controlled markets things are valuable because there is a limit on how many there are. This isnt true in video games. And with millions of players crafting stuff each day the number of each item available is at fault. Your picture Wade of scrap, imagine a few months when say all the blue items available sales are that high, then purple so on and so on. The true problem with this is saturation and undercutting. See everyone wants their coin NOW, so they mark it down .01 cheaper. Then the guy above sees that and does the same thing. All the while 5 more guys just crafted the same item and do the same thing! If you have 200 players selling the same item, starting at 1.00 and everyone undercuts, then half way through your item is worthless. Imagine that routine except its millions of players, and say 100.00, rapid declination is the result. The fix is easy, and IMO bombing game play and using tactics like "400% daily bonus" is shady, unprofessional and will end with the game failing. More on the daily bonus below, first let me address the rest of the OP items.

so this is 100% pay to win the only time a game is not pay to win is when it is only cosmetics you can purchas with real money that way it is people who can and want to support the game... in a 1v1 I would love to see someone with the best common parts beat soemone using the blue or high items... lol it will never happen   so very sad to see this happen to such an awesome game right out the of the gate like this ....  I am level 10 and I have been matched against guided missels... like WTF ???  match making sytem is designed to force people to get these hard to get parts if they want to win anything...  examples of not pay to win games with markets are Path of Exile and Rocket League.

This isn't a pay to win game at all. In fact balance in the game is GREAT. On everything, TOWS, Drones, Cannons, Epics ect. This is why WoW made gear score a concept all those years ago, because it works. I beat blues and purples EVERY match with whites. I have been playing a week, I use a minivan and 4 chords. Thanks to Power Score I am balanced because I understand the games mechanics, how to build my vehicle, protect my assets with armor design, implement proper engagement techniques, aim well, and target priority. So no, not pay to win.

 The proof is you have thousands of orders sitting there not being bought or sold ... anyone with a brain can see it...

No sir, the items ARE getting sold, there are just that many.

 The proof is you have thousands of orders sitting there not being bought or sold ... anyone with a brain can see it...

You did not get an avenger cannon in a rare box. There are ONLY rare items in a rare box aside from cosmetics. Furthermore the drop rates in crates right now HAVE to be low. I know a lot of players feel screwed but this would directly effect the market worse.

On 6/17/2017 at 7:53 AM, WadeTheScrapper said:

  The way the current system is to years max and this game will be full of tumble weeds, with a skeleton player base.

 

The current system doesn't even have two years max. In fact there will be a complete market collapse within months. And then Targem doesnt get their paychecks. They dont get to pay their server providers. The game doesnt exist period.

On 6/17/2017 at 7:53 AM, WadeTheScrapper said:

the whole game is unbalanced anyways 5,000 power score vs 2,500 power score who is going to win? lol one person with 5,000 powerscore will take out an entire team of 2,500 that is the same as a go kart beating a drag racer it will never happen lol unless Hellen Keller is driving the drag racer lol

Unless in Brawls, which need some work matchmaking, Ive never seen a 5k in a 2500. 3200 maybe.  Again I wanna state that the game is VERY balanced. You need to learn how it works better, sorry.

On 6/17/2017 at 7:53 AM, WadeTheScrapper said:

ere is a solution to this and it will take off very well make and in game currency you get for team man ship in battles and sell custom skins and character pictures ... If you look at both rocket league and path of exile you will see these models work and it is 100% cosmetics

 

This is EXACTLY what Targem tried to avoid. They were quite proud of their player driven markets and advertised it a lot. The market is their SOLE source of income. Cosmetics will come, but do you know how long it takes to model skin and implement on thousands of different vehicles? The market will crash by then making your point moot.

 

On the 400% experience, think about this guys, without that an average high skilled player Winning the match gets around 1k experience. At level 17, 176000 experience is needed.That translate into 176 5 minute PVP matches to level, or about 14 hours of straight PVP grind without the bonus this doesnt include crafting trading other game modes, or loosing. Realistically with these numbers it would take around 30 hours game play to go from 17 - 18 and the gaps are only going to get bigger. The bonus is merely normal experience levels. This is evident when you look at the very small percentages cosmetic items give. For example it would take 200 cosmetic items just to put reputation gains back to "normal" value. And that's 200 blue cosmetic items, valued at approx 65 coins each on the market. Meaning to buy out "normal"  experience levels you need nearly 14k coins and the best deal on coins for cash is 3500c for 50$ that's $200 dollars to have your 400% applied permanently. Or how about orange cosmetics, a 4%gain meaning it'd take 100 items valued at approx 1000 coins each on the market meaning it'd take 100000 coins or around $1500 us dollars. These numbers are ruining your whole cosmetic process if anyone puts any thought behind them. The 400% "Bonus" Is merely another tactic to slow down progress and punish players who farm for their precious market. Not to mention its false advertisement.

The developers are ruining this game, not out of greed but out of incompetence. These tactics are NOT how you deal with a market crash. The game should NEVER had been pushed out of Beta. I feel like the developers cut corners, and pushed it out due to advertising and financing deadlines and they were not ready. Now it is catch up. Bugs and glitches Everywhere, I've made 8 reports in the week I have played. Worthless beta testers, not all but most I have spoke to. And now among all the issues, the market collapse that should have been seen coming before release. It took me a week to realize what is happening. And most of that was just playing and leveling, I have only been involved in the market for days lol.

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7 minutes ago, *SlickToxin said:

 

The developers are ruining this game, not out of greed but out of incompetence. These tactics are NOT how you deal with a market crash. The game should NEVER had been pushed out of Beta. I feel like the developers cut corners, and pushed it out due to advertising and financing deadlines and they were not ready. Now it is catch up. Bugs and glitches Everywhere, I've made 8 reports in the week I have played. Worthless beta testers, not all but most I have spoke to. And now among all the issues, the market collapse that should have been seen coming before release. It took me a week to realize what is happening. And most of that was just playing and leveling, I have only been involved in the market for days lol.

I've read your entire post man. I just wanted to highlight this section.

Firstly I though : "Oh yeah, he might knows a few things...".

And then, and then...

:dntknw:

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1 minute ago, *SlickToxin said:

Not sure what you mean?

Well we are all beta testers.

We are currently trying to improve this game together as it is an Open BETA.

So I wonder if you guys thinks it the final fully upgraded version of the game, but I can assure you it is not.

So the market won't die easily, content will be added gradually, bugs will be fixed, etc, etc...

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I understand, and you aren't the first to say that. However, the game wasn't presented to me as OBT. On steam it says only payers of early access would get to play until q3 2017 (which we are not there I get) but otherwise is not represented as a beta. MMOHUT not mentioned MMOtactics ,mmorpg,mmos, ect. On the main website the word beta is not used.

I read several reviews before downloading per usual, never once did I think I was a "Beta tester". In fact I spent 10 dollars on the starter pac for the Torino parts before I realized I was a beta tester.

The testers I was refering to are mostly the children in these forums who instead of providing fixes and constructive criticism simply complain about nerfing, well everything. They brag about being a CBT then show they have no understanding of game development/mechanics.

The CBT is where MAJOR issues like a market crash, network instability, and AI balance should be worked out. But as I pointed out most of that seems to be correlated and done purposefully.

Furthermore I imagine most  players are unaware they are OBT, and therefore are again not contributing to the development of the game. In addition a game should not take money for a market that is collapsing if it is truly in OBT. That's just one more underhanded tactic that woefully leads me to believe this game will fail as it is either evidence of a company trying to get a quick buck before its too late because they know the market will crash, or a company whose tactics are so callous that they will eventually destroy the player base due to future shady tactics.

It seems more to me as I said, as far as advertising, like all those sites who have known about the game and written their blogs/articles/reviews have set a deadline to publish that Targem HAD to push the game out. None of those sites seem to be aware of OBT status and most content is pre written months in advance. Crossout Facebook page hasn't posted in over two years another bad sign. The only mention of OBT is in these forums occasionally and on twitter, where it seems more of an excuse for poor execution.

Edited by *SlickToxin
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9 minutes ago, *SlickToxin said:

I understand, and you aren't the first to say that. However, the game wasn't presented to me as OBT. On steam it says only payers of early access would get to play until q3 2017 (which were not there I get) but otherwise is not represented as a beta. MMOHUT not mentioned MMOtactics ,mmorpg,mmos, ect. On the main website the word beta is not used.

I read several reviews before downloading per usual, never once did I think I was a "Beta tester". In fact I spent 10 dollars on the starter pac for the Torino parts before I realized I was a beta tester.

The testers I was refering to are mostly the children in these forums who instead of providing fixes and constructive criticism simply complain about nerfing, well everything. They brag about being a CBT then show they have no understanding of game development/mechanics.

The CBT is where MAJOR issues like a market crash, network instability, and AI balance should be worked out. But as I pointed out most of that seems to be correlated and done purposefully.

Furthermore I imagine most  players are unaware they are OBT, and there for are again not contributing to the development of the game. In addition a game should not take money for a market that is collapsing if it is truly in OBT. Thats just one more underhanded tactic that woefully leads me to believe this game will fail as that is either evidence of a company trying to get a quick buck before its too late because they know the market will crash, or a company who's tactics are so callous that they will eventually destroy the player base due to future shady tactics.

It seems more to me as I said, as far as advertising, like all those sites who have known about the game and written their blogs/articles/reviews have set a deadline to publish that Targem HAD to push the game out. None of those sites seem to be aware of OBT status and most content is pre written months in advance. Crossout Facebook page hasn't posted in over two years another bad sign. The only mention of OBT is in these forums occasionally and on twitter, where it seems more of an excuse for poor execution.

Well yes, this is what is waiting us if devs keeps working on weapons skins and things like that. - little poke here -

I hope they won't. We don't know, no one knows.

But lets do our job and try to improve this game, and as you said, do constructive criticism.

For the moment, I don't think it is the time to spit on devs works.

It will takes years to the game to get out of open beta and you know, many things can still change.

 

Edited by MissaLeJambon

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Please understand I love the game. I really see a ton of potential for a platform like this.

To what you just said, part of developing games and any business for that matter is projected spread sheets. The market crash should have been seen miles away, and perhaps it is hastened due to a rapid influx of players nevertheless it should have been expected. But putting out cosmetic content, not to mention cosmetic content you can not directly craft or quest for without RNG or $$ is again more evidence of juicing.  https://crossoutdb.com/item/85

I pointed out earlier that adding cosmetic items would take too long as these issues are deteriorating rapidly. There is a post here with what must be an economics professor and some solid suggestions

And perhaps I was too aggressive calling out the devs, but again I spent money and was under the impression this was a shelf ready game. I guess the silver lining here is *if they fix the market, work out the rest of the kinks, for the time being the 650 coins I got for purchasing the starter pack will have more buying power than ever. And an insider secret to trading, if they use any of that guys suggestions about centralizing the commodities (scrap copper electronics) NOW is the time to buy them in bulk.

 

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3 minutes ago, *SlickToxin said:

Please understand I love the game. I really see a ton of potential for a platform like this.

To what you just said, part of developing games and any business for that matter is projected spread sheets. The market crash should have been seen miles away, and perhaps it is hastened due to a rapid influx of players nevertheless it should have been expected. But putting out cosmetic content, not to mention cosmetic content you can not directly craft or quest for without RNG or $$ is again more evidence of juicing.  https://crossoutdb.com/item/85

I pointed out earlier that adding cosmetic items would take too long as these issues are deteriorating rapidly. There is a post here with what must be an economics professor and some solid suggestions

And perhaps I was too aggressive calling out the devs, but again I spent money and was under the impression this was a shelf ready game. I guess the silver lining here is *if they fix the market, work out the rest of the kinks, for the time being the 650 coins I got for purchasing the starter pack will have more buying power than ever. And an insider secret to trading, if they use any of that guys suggestions about centralizing the commodities (scrap copper electronics) NOW is the time to buy them in bulk.

 

- As you can read in the below comments of this post I 100% agree with what's being said here -

I suggest everyone to read it as it is understandable.

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So would making the workbench tax a different resource help? Like scrap? That would make scrap more valuable which I would think would be better for everyone.

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On 2017-06-18 at 3:29 PM, Erionax said:

It doesn't matter. Because everything is too expensive. You can craft everything super fast, just by playing for couple of days, you can craft epic item. Why should have it so much value? Compared to other game with ingame auction, everything in Crossout is pointlessly super expensive.

So forced to buy Coins for real money or be stuck with white weapons/the stuff you managed to craft before the (negative)inflation? Becuse you will strugle reall hard to get a workbench going if it keeps dropping.

Edited by SuperGnu

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On 2017-06-23 at 11:28 PM, Aetrion said:

The second the game starts deleting my items is the second I stop buying coin. 

They can make items degrade from 100 to 0 and at 0 they stop working. It will cost scraps/wires/electronics (depending on rarity and crafting cost) to repair them.

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