ArchanDelon

Market Flooding

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I've noticed over the past couple of weeks that the market has been in a steady decline and  the prices on all items have hit a historical low as the materials needed to craft items are bottoming out. I have read a few comments from the developers that the players control the market prices. While I agree that it is the players that create the prices based on supply and demand, it is the developers that create the supply. It is currently too easy to obtain all materials, especially those of common grade, and it is causing the market to become flooded with resources.

  • Matches average 90-120 seconds
  • You can play roughly 30 back-to-back matches per hour 
  • You average ~12 scrap per match (~9 loss/~15 win)
  • You can get ~ 360 scrap per hour
  • You can get 1,075 scrap per week from seasons.
  • Scrap is capped at 2,800.
  • You can hit the scrap cap in ~8 hours of back to back matches (~4 hours of matches if you collect the Season scrap rewards)
  • You can get ~15 common items (cabins, wheels, weapons, hardware, etc) per hour depending on mission selection

The amount of scrap gathered per match is too high, and the common rewards are too plentiful. The current system makes common items worthless and makes it difficult for newer players to acquire money. The system also makes crafting items so cheap that you cannot sell them for much profit after subtracting the market 10% cut and bench renting fees.

There are 2 possible ways to reduce the amount available on the market.

  1. Reduce the amount of materials won per match. For example:
    1. Reduce the amount of Scrap won per match by 50%
    2. Make common items a 50% chance to drop on win instead of 100%
  2. Make every win guarantee a drop of  X Scrap or a common item, not both. For example "Get the cannon!":
    1. 60% chance 15x Scrap
    2. 10% chance 1x Avenger 57mm
    3. 10% chance 1x Radio
    4. 10% chance 1x Avia Booster
    5. 10% chance 1x Random part of common quality

When the amount of available common items decreases, they will become more valuable. This will give newer players items to sell to gain money to enter the market. This will also cause the prices on rare, epic, and legendary items to increase allowing for more profit once crafted. Lastly, this will make items harder to craft because there will be less resources available, thus making higher tiered weapons more desirable.

 

 

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Sounds like it'll just make it near impossible to actually sell items, since prices will be insane; And few would be able to afford them.

Resulting in more work to craft, and near identical prices - or completely dead market, since everything would be in the 300-1k range.

Due to:

 

Option one:

So you reduce scrap, which is needed for everything.

Scrap is capped off at 2k a week - With everything needing 450+ scrap per singular item on the lower levels.

With a 50% chance per victory, to gain nothing but scrap - and that's assuming you haven't reached the cap in a week.

Sure, prices will rise, but you'll have trouble actually making any items,let alone to afford the benches, let alone anyone actually being able to buy any of your parts.

Since everything is essentially rare at the common level, crafting will be inconsistent, making everything sky-rocket... if it's not common-grade, which is the new players' only material \ part option. This is due to how many common parts are in the Blues & above - so you'd still not make much of a profit if any.

Option two:

So you want to have even less scrap, which is needed for everything.

Scrap is capped off at 2k a week - With everything needing 450+ scrap per singular item on the lower levels.

And have common items, have to compete with scrap, which by the way, are needed to build most items.

Imagine having to pray you don't get the 60% chance of scrap, approx 3 times per win, per item to craft... While still needing all the scrap in the world.

Makes building items harder, which means You will be less likely to even afford materials, or sell them due to the lack of said parts to even sell.

(As after the cap, you'd have a 60% chance to gain nothing per win. )

Sure, prices will rise, but you'll have trouble actually making any items,let alone to afford the benches, let alone anyone actually being able to buy any of your parts.

Since either they will be incredibly high for everything but Commons, or none will be playing till the next week to ensure they have materials to craft/

This would be due , to how commons while rarer, are still used in bulk for Blues & up, making those skyrocket - But commons are still easily earned...

 

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Reduce the amount of materials won per match

yes they already try that on fuel drop.so what happened.fuel price so high and no one go to pve battle.

if that happened on the scrap everything will be expensive and you have to use the white weapons again and again because you can't build blue or higher equip easily.

 

 

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1 hour ago, RedStar690 said:

Reduce the amount of materials won per match

yes they already try that on fuel drop.so what happened.fuel price so high and no one go to pve battle.

if that happened on the scrap everything will be expensive and you have to use the white weapons again and again because you can't build blue or higher equip easily.

THIS

I can`t even imagine how idiotically it would be to reduce the materials even more. On Xbox we need freaky 450 scrap for everything so how exactly am I supposed to get them?!?! With the stupid 2800 gap? I don`t think so. We have now so much so much hard gaps...now also reducing of resources even more? Thanks, this will help a lot of people to quit. And for what? For the point than someone can get more on market? Egoistical stupid reason to kill the game with it and a big loos on player base.

 

Thanks for nothing on your "plan" to destroy the game OP

pwW8bnc.gif

 

 

 

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The solution to this problem is simple, remove the cap and give a boost to scrap gain like rested for xp. So this would look like a 12 scrap win until the bonus is gone and then 4 scrap per win.

If you play 24 hrs straight and win every battle you get 1,536 scrap roughly... I'm not sure how this approach could be abused and it keeps the numbers similar to what they are plus it gives players an infinite incentive to play 

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On 6/23/2017 at 3:30 PM, ArchanDelon said:

You can hit the scrap cap in ~8 hours of back to back matches (~4 hours of matches if you collect the Season scrap rewards)

You can get it in an hour if you do brawls and 45 minutes if that 50% bonus is on.

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On 6/28/2017 at 2:43 AM, RedStar690 said:

Reduce the amount of materials won per match

yes they already try that on fuel drop.so what happened.fuel price so high and no one go to pve battle.

if that happened on the scrap everything will be expensive and you have to use the white weapons again and again because you can't build blue or higher equip easily.

 

 

So you think hitting the weekly cap for scrap in the first 6 hours of play is healthy for the game? The hard caps were set in place to prevent over-farming for people who play all the time, but scrap is so easy to get most of the casual players are hitting it every week.  Blue items are supposed to be rare, yet 3/4 of the people in 2-4k PS range are running multiple blues. At 2800 scrap a week, you can make 6 blues. That is a lot of items for 6 hours of play.

Lowering the amount of fuel dropped per battle was an attempt at lowering the amount of copper on the market. It failed because it restricted players from participating in a core part of the game, not because fuel became expensive but because no one wanted to play 15 battles to gather the fuel.

 

Edited by ArchanDelon

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What about wire ? Electronics ? Copper ? I do not see how it is possible to reach all the cap in a week without playing 24 hours a day.

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On 6/27/2017 at 6:18 PM, Oraliz said:

Sounds like it'll just make it near impossible to actually sell items, since prices will be insane; And few would be able to afford them.

Resulting in more work to craft, and near identical prices - or completely dead market, since everything would be in the 300-1k range.

 

As of right now, there is 2022 Chords, 2982 57mm, and 2807 Luparas. My suggestion would cut this number in half, which is still a huge supply. These items would be far from rare, but would be more valuable. For a long time common items sold for anywhere from 3-5c a piece and the economy was healthy. A new player could sell a few white items and rent a crafting bench, farm up some scrap and copper and make a blue or 2. Right now prices are so low that 3/4 of every match is filled with blue items.

I've been playing for 2 weeks and have 24 blues(a cabin, 6 wheels, 3 drones, 3 MG, 3 shotguns, 2 cannons, 3 weapon coolers, an engine, a radar detector, and a generator) not including the handful I sold before the latest market drop. I got most of those items from casually farming copper in raids and buying the scrap once I hit the cap. I stopped attempting to sell items on the market because the time investment is not worth the reward, and only sell enough to pay for the crafting bench and some scrap.

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2 minutes ago, ArchanDelon said:

As of right now, there is 2022 Chords, 2982 57mm, and 2807 Luparas. My suggestion would cut this number in half, which is still a huge supply. These items would be far from rare, but would be more valuable. For a long time common items sold for anywhere from 3-5c a piece and the economy was healthy. A new player could sell a few white items and rent a crafting bench, farm up some scrap and copper and make a blue or 2. Right now prices are so low that 3/4 of every match is filled with blue items.

I've been playing for 2 weeks and have 24 blues(a cabin, 6 wheels, 3 drones, 3 MG, 3 shotguns, 2 cannons, 3 weapon coolers, an engine, a radar detector, and a generator) not including the handful I sold before the latest market drop. I got most of those items from casually farming copper in raids and buying the scrap once I hit the cap. I stopped attempting to sell items on the market because the time investment is not worth the reward, and only sell enough to pay for the crafting bench and some scrap.

And how do you cut these numbers in half ? Some magical disappearing from players inventories ? It won't work mate, players will notice it  :005j:

There are no bots running in background, only players, so you can't apply your idea here.

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26 minutes ago, MissaLeJambon said:

What about wire ? Electronics ? Copper ? I do not see how it is possible to reach all the cap in a week without playing 24 hours a day.

I didn't include electronics because the average player isn't dealing with them currently. While I wouldn't foresee most players hitting the wire cap, I also don't see most players spamming out epic weapons on a daily basis (they really shouldn't). Copper is the only material I farm actively. I usually work my way through the easy season rewards and hit the scrap cap in the first 4 hours of playing. Then I switch to get the wires and work on the normal season rewards. I've only made it half way through the normal rewards because of how long it takes to gather fuel.

I usually play heavily on the first day of the week and only play to use my fuel/xp boost towards the end of the week. I get around 2800 scrap, 200-300 copper, and 200-300 wires in the first day (About 6 hours). I then buy the commons for less than 1c each and craft 4-6 blues. Sell 1 blue for ~40c then buy more bench time and around 400 scrap. If I want to make more Items I can sell another blue, buy more scrap, play 3 normal raids and make another item. Each fuel reset I spend 240 fuel (200 reset, 40 barrel) to do 6 normal raids and get ~108 copper which is enough for another 2 items. I like cargo races and heist because I can speed rush each in ~2 mins unless I need kills for season rewards.

Do I like that it's this easy to get items, absolutely! But it is too easy and in a couple of months I'll have everything I want and stop playing. If they want people to keep playing they need to re-balance power scores and make it harder to get stuff.

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36 minutes ago, MissaLeJambon said:

And how do you cut these numbers in half ? Some magical disappearing from players inventories ? It won't work mate, players will notice it  :005j:

There are no bots running in background, only players, so you can't apply your idea here.

I never said the market was run by bots, or that my solution was an instant fix that'll magically make a bunch of items go away. But what happens anytime supply is cut? The resources available start to get used up until it levels off. Games with a market system always has two types of people, those who want to farm and those who want to buy. I'm a farmer, but right now prices are so low there is no real reason to farm anything but copper.

The game is still in OBT which means they need to take this time to play around with drop rates and watch how it affects the market. If they cut it too much they can increase the drop rates until they find one that works. It's common practice in a MMO with a market economy for the devs to control market supply when the prices are too high.

 In CBT there were a limited number of players so supply was kept low, but now that it's open to the public the population will grow and make the problem worse.

Take a look at the market over the last month (https://www.crossoutdb.com/) and look at the increase in supply and the decrease in prices. It got to a point where the was 2-3x more for sale than being sold. Then as the market prices crashed the supply appears to go down because people stopped putting up items for sale because it wasn't worth it anymore. This is a classic example of economic "Disequilibrium". In a real economy, suppliers would simply reduce production until the supply/demand are equalized again. In a video game where the supply is generated by basic play, developers have to step in and manually reduce the supply somehow.  

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The market is just responding to what people want to buy and sell. 

Some people like to do PvP and they get fuel

Some people like to do PvE and they get copper

What concerns me is the hard caps cutting people's progress completely in an iron fisted manner rather than controlling the amount that can be earned.

The difference is that limited resources (2800 per week) makes them more valuable in the market because they are limited

Controlled resources are able to adjust more fluidly (x resources per match) because they are never able to run out = less drastic fluctuations in price

look at oil prices vs food prices for an example 

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3 hours ago, ArchanDelon said:

As of right now, there is 2022 Chords, 2982 57mm, and 2807 Luparas. My suggestion would cut this number in half, which is still a huge supply. These items would be far from rare, but would be more valuable. For a long time common items sold for anywhere from 3-5c a piece and the economy was healthy. A new player could sell a few white items and rent a crafting bench, farm up some scrap and copper and make a blue or 2. Right now prices are so low that 3/4 of every match is filled with blue items.

I've been playing for 2 weeks and have 24 blues(a cabin, 6 wheels, 3 drones, 3 MG, 3 shotguns, 2 cannons, 3 weapon coolers, an engine, a radar detector, and a generator) not including the handful I sold before the latest market drop. I got most of those items from casually farming copper in raids and buying the scrap once I hit the cap. I stopped attempting to sell items on the market because the time investment is not worth the reward, and only sell enough to pay for the crafting bench and some scrap.

And, in order to craft you actually need these, but these will always be in a high supply, as the they are the common-grade weapons.

Not only are used as crafting components, the first thing those starting out can really sell (unless they can manage an easy raid), and are the first weapons outside of the Grey machine-gun given at start, as more players enter (or leave), these weapons will still be in a large supply: And should be.

If you can easily make 25C for common weapon sales, and then simply craft blue weaponry... those blues should also sell for a lot, or have been de-valued.

You shouldn't expect the literal common-grade gear to be anywhere near profitable without mass bulk sales - Copper, Scrap, and Fuel should be your basic sales that make profit.

Copper is limited already, and you can use massive loads of it, Copper is needed in large amounts (and by new players, making sales), Fuel is generally used for bulk raiding, or recovery of a loss.

So rather than cut down the supply of the basic weaponry, realize that doesn't help the new players sell anything; It makes it harder for them to progress past the starter gun, and makes everything on the market incredibly expensive but the Fuel, Copper, and maybe Scrap.

And that is if, it even cuts it down.

(Which would become even more problematic for them to get (scrap), to craft the weapons that don't drop, or is the fact that 300 scrap makes the white weapons forgotten?)

2 hours ago, ArchanDelon said:

I never said the market was run by bots, or that my solution was an instant fix that'll magically make a bunch of items go away. But what happens anytime supply is cut? The resources available start to get used up until it levels off. Games with a market system always has two types of people, those who want to farm and those who want to buy. I'm a farmer, but right now prices are so low there is no real reason to farm anything but copper.

The game is still in OBT which means they need to take this time to play around with drop rates and watch how it affects the market. If they cut it too much they can increase the drop rates until they find one that works. It's common practice in a MMO with a market economy for the devs to control market supply when the prices are too high.

 In CBT there were a limited number of players so supply was kept low, but now that it's open to the public the population will grow and make the problem worse.

Take a look at the market over the last month (https://www.crossoutdb.com/) and look at the increase in supply and the decrease in prices. It got to a point where the was 2-3x more for sale than being sold. Then as the market prices crashed the supply appears to go down because people stopped putting up items for sale because it wasn't worth it anymore. This is a classic example of economic "Disequilibrium". In a real economy, suppliers would simply reduce production until the supply/demand are equalized again. In a video game where the supply is generated by basic play, developers have to step in and manually reduce the supply somehow.  

You basically want to make a profit off selling less of the common grade weapons to make coin, that new players need, use, and have to sell in bulk if they even have that.

Sell Scrap, Copper, Wire; That's a basic source, don't rely on making profit off of the basic common-grade weapons - They are used in crafting, needed by new players, and rendered into scrap, but this balanced by the plentiful nature of them.

You want a more profitable source? Sell blues, purples, or keep selling copper.

In reality, one does not need to use a gun, cabin, and a generator to make a larger gun as well - As well, all markets have flux, changes in import & export rates.

Supply of the common grade, should be high as it is common grade; Supply of rares, epics, legendaries, relics, those are what are balanced or changing in balance for production, which controls the supply of the actual quality items.

And many things already take such out of the supply - Same with the coins.

We do not need a shortage, or 60% chance of zero, of common materials & scrap... as dear lord.

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Get off ur **** and grind

 

Kind regards, 3x hammerfalls without paying a dime in 2 weeks

Edited by TacticalImouto

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Possible solution. All items have a given price that the engineers will buy them for if you're willing to wait. Say... a 'deliver to engineers' button that you can throw so many items at per day, or once a day in a big bunch. So you can either wait a few(?) hours for your monies or put your items on the market place for instant money. 

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LOL, this is so funny you are basically saying "we need to raise the prices because the prices are too low".....good laugh. Imagine a store owner comes in and says "Hmmm I don't like the prices in my store - they are too low"

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Scrap comes quick I agree. It takes me 4 hours to cap max. However.... Scrap is the best way for new players with nothing to make coin as it isn't awarded. White items are plentiful because again new players need quick access look at how the missions are set up. It's a tutorial to get to 3k and really start, the tutorial being a process in need of much approval evident by the amount of players who think drones/tows/Caucasus needs nerf which isn't true . The bench rental and 10% tax is put there soley so you do not make too much profit and must actually play the game some where do you think the tax and rental goes? You are correct about one thing, an inevitable crash. This is because in real life, commodities retain value because there is a limited supply. In video games there is not. So through saturation, deflation/undercutting  it will crash as more items become available on the market. If you read through the numerous posts on the subject one person suggested a centralized bank for commodities. I. E. Scrap copper wire electronics. This is the best I've heard as there has to be a bottom to it. Only thing is this is the exact opposite of the developers original dream of a player driven market. They have all ready slowed the rate at which commodities can be gathered. And there was uproar. In addition, slowing drop rates cutting resource rates ect. Will not work. You see while you may think that less items means more value, it is incorrect as the number of players means no less items. No limit and that if you make it slower the individual gets frustrated when the masses still pour items in. Remember there is still 5 million players getting those white items lowering drop rates 10% only staggers the time it takes for the same amount to hit the market by like 10 minutes. 

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The issue is blue items. And eventually purple and orange... if players had easier access to blue items this would worsen, like better rng on crates or cheaper crafting costs and players obtain too many blue items they don't want the saturation would drop the asking price of blues well below crafting costs. As it stands now there is in fact a balance. On the average the cost of most blues is near exact what it would be to buy all the materials and sell it once bench rental and tax hits. But in examples of undesirables like the scope the cost is nearly half that. A cap on the bottom price would fix that. Or having one material that is not sellable forcing players to play, although this will create bias in game play modes and extreme farming of that material. Honestly in the end when scrap wires copper and electronics hit 0.01 each the blues will be around 0.80 each to equate that same balance. So at that point the real answer is to make the number of coins you can buy with RWC smaller. Now for 2.99 us dollars you'll get 1.50 in coins lmao. Fact is the market kinda works. And there will be a bottom whether it is dev established or not. 

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I am sorry, but Scrap isn't given enough. How can you say scrap caused the market crash when there is a cap on it? lol. You cap out way to fast. And when parts cost 1k scrap to build, it results in having to buy it to build more than 1 thing a week. It is not hard to get coins. You just need to rethink what you are getting, selling and current prices. Most of the time, it is the same exact price to buy something as it is to wait and craft it vs selling mats and buying. My friend has played for 2 weeks and passed 750 coins, and he doesn't play much. This is on PC BTW. 

 

Yes, the market prices are plummeting, but that's only because fuel is way to easy to get. Barrels need to not stack, and everything will rise back up a bit. Fuel drives Copper, which drives EVERYTHING. 

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As a new player (within the last two weeks), I struggle to make C. White parts are literally worthless on the market. I ended up selling a blue shotgun I got as some reward just to be able to access my first faction workbench. I have managed to craft 6 blue parts (cab, engine, 2 rapiers, radiator and cooler). And I feel mighty proud of that as, like I said I had to sell my first rare part just to unlock the scavenger workbench. 

 

So I marvel at all the players with purple parts in low PS games. I can't fathom how they get this stuff without a) playing entirely too much b) using real money.

I have managed to break 5k PS but honestly my truck is way under gunned for most of the matches I see. Seriously thinking about dropping back down.

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On 30/06/2017 at 11:09 AM, TacticalImouto said:

Get off ur **** and grind

 

Kind regards, 3x hammerfalls without paying a dime in 2 weeks

Thank you for adding nothing to the discussion and doing little more than insult people.

Next time think before you post.

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I don't like playing for hours , i like to buy all stuff, craft, wait and sell to make profit... But the problem is that you can't get rewarded for waiting because everything costs so much

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