BjKalderon

Possible spears balance tweaks

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Survivors!

Balance tweaks are following and will follow the game during its development, as well as after the offcial release of the game. Your suggestions and feedback are essential to us, as they show us the game from different perspective and encourage us to take a fresh look at its current state and think about possible changes.

Today we would like to know your ideas about the spears in Crossout. In your opinion, what can we do to make them more appealing? What kind of changes would you like to see? Share your feedback in the comments and we'll be sure to consider it!

P.S. This topic is created to discuss the spears. Please, don't leave the comments about other weapons, details, etc.

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Give spear cooldown abilty. 45~90 seconds.   Give random time to spear cooldown.  This making counter gaming littlebit easyer. Specially 

near the end game. 

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The spear seems fine as is, but it would need drastic changes before i would use them in pvp actively tho. 

The reasons for me not using the spears are as follows:

  • Explosive spears are high risk high reward, you are more likely to die early in the game witch means
    • You will be more likely to just sit spectating than playing if you die early on (can't quit and still get reward anymore)
    • You will receive no fuel
    • inconsistent spear performance can lead to low reward (One target absorbs all of the spears, what do you do then?)
  • Spears are very expensive, they are the same price as any other weapon, but you only get a single shot with them and you need to stack them to effectively use them in battle.
  • Very low HP pool means you will be easily dismantled if spotted.
  • Some maps makes them impossible difficult to use
    • Bridge for example is hopeless as you got nowhere to hide or flank from
  • Hard to build with several of them
Edited by NaggNogger
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i saw a great Suggestion to make Spears less stupid a bit ago - allow them to Detonate each other.
that would force spacing them out a bit to use effectively rather than being able to just slightly stagger them and usually vaporize Targets without slowing down.

for each in particular, for the Rare 'Explosive Spear', it performs alright in consideration of the low PS rating and costing 1E... a one time use yes, but it's also pretty cheap...
only thing i could think off the top of my head would be for it to instead of Explode on contact, to stick to the Enemy and detonate a few seconds later.

for the Epic 'Lancelot'... it's already pretty dumb powerful. where a few can guarantee a Kill on.... basically anything but a spider tank or a Leviathan. on almost anything else a few of them staggered will guarantee a Kill.

- - - - - 

some likely reasons they aren't super popular though...

  • you need a lot of them compared to Guns due to being one use, this makes the investment cost for them VERY high compared to other Weapons.
  • pretty easy to be shot off due to having a pretty large overall surface area and eeeh Health

 

however.... while it makes sense they aren't highly popular - it's so critically important to note that while the Rare version is 'not half bad' in most situations, the Epic version as aforementioned, deals absolutely ridiculous Damage and a few hits from them will Kill ANYTHING (that isn't a spider). no matter what it is, if it can move, Lancelots can Kill it at the snap of a finger. i.e. they're already very powerful.

so, you can't just outright buff them to make them used more, because in Killing power, they aren't weak as it is. so making them more commonly used is.... difficult without making them complete cruise control Weapons (in which they are a bit cruise control currently)

- - - - - 

making them not single use, but having low availability is... probably the best or maybe only way to be able to change them in some way without making them useless or just blatantly Overpowered.

 

one thing worth noting, is that as Explosive Weapons, like (all? seems to be) other Explosives in Crossout they're susceptible to that Explosions require Line of Sight to Damage things, and so even if a Spear type Weapon did 10,000 Damage it'll probably break just a few outside parts and one layer of Armor.
you could... make the Spear category deal indiscriminate AoE, and that would definitely be a buff - though you'd probably have to divide their Damage by 3 for them to not instantly turn into micro Nuclear Devices on a stick.

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One thing that annoys me the most is hitting an enemy with the side of the spear and it barely does any damage.

Also, change the abilities and skills for the bulldog driver to suit melee weapons AND explosive proximity mines.

Edited by Anown

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Not my fav weapon but i keep a pair of lances and spears handy at all time.

As said the ram for 32 damage is a huge problem

Bigger problem is theres no way to fit them on a car properly without a cloak. What I mean is these things have pitiful structure points, unless your target is blind or oblivious to you charging at them, they shoot off half your lances and theres no way to stop it because you cant defend them and even if you could why would you they are one and done. They need a buff to structure if we want them to be used in higher level matches more often.  20 and 63 structure points is laughably pathetic only thing worst is probably wasp and in higher tier battles 20 hp is literally 1 or 2 reaper bullets.

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I find spears alot of fun, but I'm just not ready to sell my kidney to be able to afford 8-10 lancelots.

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spears are not the main problem.because you can't run ram builds at high ps.even with 10 spears you can only get a build at about 6000ps. and melee build only effect at low ps battle

and another thing about melee weapon.when a light build ram a heavy build,the light build get more ram damage,that make the melee weapon get destroyed after few ram.and when you destroy the enemy explode hardware,your melee will just been destoryed but enemy still ailve and you become useless.so i don't play melee builds now.

Edited by RedStar690

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Both Lancelots and Spears need one of 2 things. They need more HP or they need more damage. Its too easy to take them out given their low structure and sometimes they may not even blow up because they get destroyed by the ramming damage. 

Another way of improving spear play would be to boost their damage a bit, my suggestion would be a small 10% damage boost or maybe more explosion radius since it would require less spears to pierce massive amounts of armor.

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I see spears more as a auxilury weapon insteed of main weapons. So I agree with incinerati that you should remove the energy costs on it. At the same time you should set a limit to lets say 2-4 spears. This way close combat vehicles like shotgun builds will use it for the first strike and are not useless after the first strike.

But what you should really implement is what taiiat said, that they are able to destroy each other when they are placed too closely. Then we wont have these annoying and unrealistic builds.

5994365e152f4_Lancelotarrangement.png.48

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Spears are quite balanced in my opinion, but they are pretty useless now due the rewards system. When all my spear are gone(i will probably die first), i have nothing else to do except to wait till the end of the battle... Its waste of time and is annoying to watch how my teammates are too scared to rush the enemy :\

Edited by Gatling96
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Just make sure they work more reliably. I sometimes hit an enemy and the spears don't explode and my car's nose gets thrown up and I get killed. Other times they get destroyed on impact without exploding. Stat and energy wise, they are fine, although expensive to get in any useful amount.

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From my experience up to 5k PS the blue explosive spears seems pretty well balanced to me. Pure blue explosive spear builds are quite rare ingame. I have no complaints about encountering them on the battlefield nor when i use them myself (biggest flaw was, when they touched the ground/teammate and explode -> which is already fixed). They can deal a lot of damage, but it is a one-trick-pony. I have fun with the pure-spear-build and the one enemy i insta-delete in a match maybe think it is OP, but my Win-rate with this thing tells another story and is surely not something to brag about (15-25%).

I can't say anything about the lancelots, because they are to expensive for me and i also rarely encounter them (3-5K PS). Even less then blue spears.

Edited by Kirowetz

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I have a spear build and use it in conjunction with other weapons typically.  The limited usage probably is cost because of their one use per battle, effectively making them the most cost to return of any weapon.

As others have said, the big hrm is that if they were more attainable, stacked spears become pretty potent.  Give a small AoE that has them damage nearby components so a mass spear build has to consider spreading, then have two per production run maybe?

Lastly, some maps are just terrible for em, more to do with tires though.  Water in river is tough, and landing a good ambush in desert is very tricky.  That said, mine are now a bit more utility.  I combine the spears with other gear to make myself a good distraction, scout or to keep carrying momentum after a hit.

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Suggestion for Lancelot.

Example by wheels.  When you build legendary tracks, one track is equal to multiple tires.  Why not do similar for lancelot?  It is an RPG warhead, up energy, but give it a full reload.  So one lance has say three energy cost, but three reloads and some durability?

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Spoiler

 

I think spears should be entirely rework. 

They could be a real problem, especially in Clan Wars. 

The ability of the spear builds to move without any risk with cameleon and to take a kill extremely easily is problematic. 

A spear build has the biggest alphastrike of the entire game. Because their damage is strong and they are spammable as hell... 

Just imagine a well organized team of 4 spear builds in Clan Wars. Each of them can One Shot you and you can't counter them because they are invisble. And even if you are good to spot them with an MG or other rapid fire stuff, they will be always hard to stop before they hit you. 

And I don't want imagine if both teams have spear builds. So awkward... 

To be sure to make a trade without any risk is incredibly powerfull. 

---

For me spears should have a biggest energy cost (2 or 3), ammunitions and cooldowns. Like actual drones/turrets. 

You hit your opponent, the spears explode and they will be relaoded at the end of the cooldown. 

Plus, that's will make the gameplay a bit more interesting than just ramming/killing/waiting... 

 

---

Quote

 

remove energy requirement, reduce damage and reintroduce realistic splash damage mechanic (so the spears get blown off by other nearby spears).

spears should never gotten energy requirement and it's a damn shame that you didn't ask for suggestions from community a year ago, when you nerfed them. just rollback that change, and reduce their damage. a one use weapon shouldn't use energy, but it shouldn't do ridiculous damage also.

 

 Please no, it will make all build to powerfull in melee or for countering melee. 

Don't create mandatory stuff like that. 

Bumper should stay the only parts able to deal damage without energy cost. 

 

Edited by Tigrius_MkIV
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28 minutes ago, Tigrius_MkIV said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think spears should be entirely rework. 

They could be a real problem, especially in Clan Wars. 

The ability of the spear builds to move without any risk with cameleon and to take a kill extremely easily is problematic. 

A spear build has the biggest alphastrike of the entire game. Because their damage is strong and they are spammable as hell... 

Just imagine a well organized team of 4 spear builds in Clan Wars. Each of them can One Shot you and you can't counter them because they are invisble. And even if you are good to spot them with an MG or other rapid fire stuff, they will be always hard to stop before they hit you. 

And I don't want imagine if both teams have spear builds. So awkward... 

To be sure to make a trade without any risk is incredibly powerfull. 

---

For me spears should have a biggest energy cost (2 or 3), ammunitions and cooldowns. Like actual drones/turrets. 

You hit your opponent, the spears explode and they will be relaoded at the end of the cooldown. 

Plus, that's will make the gameplay a bit more interesting than just ramming/killing/waiting... 

 

As a user of spears, I can say there is more to it than that.  Some maps are extremely difficult to hit.  A slight bounce can be a miss and angling in on a moving target is very difficult.  Though other maps, it is easy.

The MK1 cloak is short duration and the MK2 is large.  Also always risk that one person is attentive with minimap and gets you on radar detector.  More than once I have gone for ambush and well timed shotgun spreads decloak me and spears are gone before I can ever hit.  In terms of clans, cloaked spears are readily counterable.

But it isnt without flaw.  The shared earlier pic of ten lancelots is enough that a good team should be able to instant alpha off grid another team if playing remotely smart.  Solution is to give each warhead a 2 square radius AoE of friendly fire (5x5x5 cube).  Anything in that range takes friendly blast damage meaning that your spears chain disappear.  So to get ten lancelots onto a build would mean a massive frontal area, part and weight intensive.

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15 minutes ago, Tigrius_MkIV said:

Just imagine a well organized team of 4 spear builds in Clan Wars

I have also thought this.  One of my own definitions of an OP weapon is whether a whole team running the same weapon could defeat another team all using a different weapon.  e.g. 8 shotgun builds would easily beat every other team/weapon simply by rushing them.  The only possible exception is against 8 Spear builds where I think it could be touch and go. 

If player experience is a consideration at all, then nobody likes getting killed within seconds of spawning into a game - however, as we now have Artillery and TOW  doing exactly this, I doubt whether this has any importance.  

Personally, I don't think they should be "more appealing" as they just troll players. I imagine that their popularity has declined since the incentive to stay to the end of game was introduced. Previously, they were mainly abused by the "get 1/2 kills in 30 seconds and quit" players.  

Players running 100% spear builds are a small minority, generally tryhards who are unwilling or unable to compete on the same level as the vast majority of players and are happy to guarantee themselves a kill or two and do nothing else for the rest of the game.  A strange breed that I've never understood and players tend to leave matches that have them in it. 

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One use/one kill weapons have no place in pvp games I'm just glad no one uses them.

Edited by ROACHOR
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4 hours ago, EhWhatOldBean said:

I have also thought this.  One of my own definitions of an OP weapon is whether a whole team running the same weapon could defeat another team all using a different weapon.  e.g. 8 shotgun builds would easily beat every other team/weapon simply by rushing them.  The only possible exception is against 8 Spear builds where I think it could be touch and go. 

If player experience is a consideration at all, then nobody likes getting killed within seconds of spawning into a game - however, as we now have Artillery and TOW  doing exactly this, I doubt whether this has any importance.  

Personally, I don't think they should be "more appealing" as they just troll players. I imagine that their popularity has declined since the incentive to stay to the end of game was introduced. Previously, they were mainly abused by the "get 1/2 kills in 30 seconds and quit" players.  

Players running 100% spear builds are a small minority, generally tryhards who are unwilling or unable to compete on the same level as the vast majority of players and are happy to guarantee themselves a kill or two and do nothing else for the rest of the game.  A strange breed that I've never understood and players tend to leave matches that have them in it. 

Not all spear builds are troll build.  Mine, "Rabid dog"  (not sure if my current is on the exhibition) is a very fun and team oriented build good for the entire play of battle.

That is where the good play of spear builds come in.  I had an evening where myself and a speed dual cannon build shared queued.  We both effectively countered eachother and really enjoyed ourselves.  We both had to change our play because we had to be cautious of somebody that didnt fit the meta and both got better as a result and overall just a lot of fun.

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Don't forget that against clocked, spear equipped build you have no counter. Only thanks to radar detector you can notice that a red dot dissapeared and shoot in a right direction or run away or wait for teammate to die instead of you. Add a possibility to detect stealthed units.

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