BjKalderon

[Developer Blog] Dawn Children. Part 1

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5 hours ago, ARES_IV said:

I would agree, but then the devs dont need to guess. They have usage and probably even more detailed statistics about weapon performance.

It's never been done before. It's not like Targem is the first dev to gather statistics. 

6 hours ago, ARES_IV said:

If a weapon overperforms compared to its competition, you nerf it.

Then you find the next weapon is overperforming, so you nerf that too. Then a third weapon. Then a fourth. Then a fifth. Eventually you've nerfed every weapon. Only the nerfs weren't perfect, so there's a new tallest nail. Round and round it goes.

Targem isn't even willing to do fine-turn nerfs. You expect things to get balanced when we're seeing adjustments on the magnitude of +100% and -90%? Like, was the sidekick even tested before release? What?

Behind the TOW sealclubbing meta was a caucasus/frame sealclubbing meta. So they'll nerf frames. So there will be a equalizer sealclubbing meta. (Even putting drones aside.) So they will be nerfed. Then there will be a spike sealclubbing meta. So that will be nerfed. Etc etc until they've nerfed everything, in the meantime throwing off blue weapon balance and TTK. Lances are accidentally buffed, because TTK will have to be nerfed, and they'll end up reliably killing 2 and often 3 targets. They'll forget to keep frames down, so the frame-caucasus will return. They'll remember after a bit, but caucasus won't have been nerfed yet, they will have to be nerfed directly, and the equalizer will again be the strongest weapon.

Also, there will always be a premade sealclubbing meta.

Blizzard has three factions to balance, instead of myriad possible builds, vastly more user data, real money is on the line due to the competitive scene, their development team has to be the best-funded in the world at this point, and they still can't do it. Mechwarrior couldn't do it. Robocraft couldn't do it. Nobody has ever done it. Humans cannot balance weapons before a game cycles out of being played.

--

It's provably impossible with linear power score because weapon power doesn't scale linearly. A build with one little boy isn't twice as half as hard to kill as one with one little boy. (Let alone the fact all the other stuff is diluting the power score contribution of the weapon.) It's absolutely impossible for the one-cannon build to kill the two-cannon one. Even ganging up 2v1, they still can't do it. When an MG fights another MG, having six instead of five guns is an overwhelming advantage. It's not quite so clear on asymmetric fights, but the principle remains true.

This is why sealclubbing builds are normally glass cannons. Armour does stack linearly, but guns do not. Result: trading armour for guns will always be the best choice. Due to energy limits, at high PS this isn't possible, but one can then trade down the PS scale by stripping armour, while maintaining firepower. Actually armour stacks sub-linearly because at some point it's best to degun them, at which point further armour is almost pointless.

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You know what? You're right, all this technology is too much for a post-apocaliptic world, screw trying to rise over it and create new experimental technology, all these military grade wheels and armor along with modified World War 2 guns is still way too modern, let's just make stone wheels, wooden frames and slingshots with pebbles, that will sure be totally not like Mad Max(for the reference I haven't watched it so I have no idea what I'm talking about)

Spoiler

Lemme actually see what all of that is about.

Okay I get it, sorry.

Edited by xXThunderFlameXx
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On 1.9.2017 at 3:41 AM, Alrenous said:

Then you find the next weapon is overperforming, so you nerf that too. Then a third weapon. Then a fourth. Then a fifth. Eventually you've nerfed every weapon. Only the nerfs weren't perfect, so there's a new tallest nail. Round and round it goes.

 

Your logic is flawed. You assume that everything is op which would indicate a total failure of game design. A much more realistic scenario is that the nerfed weapon is now more in line with the weapons it was supposed to be equal too. Maybe it es even up now, but that nothing a small buff could not compensate in time.

 

On 1.9.2017 at 3:41 AM, Alrenous said:

Targem isn't even willing to do fine-turn nerfs. You expect things to get balanced when we're seeing adjustments on the magnitude of +100% and -90%? Like, was the sidekick even tested before release? What?

Such high values are indeed not suited for fine tuning balancing. Yet, there are other reason why such severe nerfs and buffs can happen nonetheless:

 

  • It is unclear what is causing the balancing problem. Is it the sidekicks drone stupid AI - something that cannot be fixed quickly - or do they just lack damage overall? By using extreme values a developer can have more certainity about what is causing the basic problem.
  • Some weapons cause serious damage to the game overall. Fine tuning it takes time the developer does not have. Most seal clubbing weapons fall into this category. Of course the TOW nerf was heavy handed... but if you are a developer and have an rocket oneshooting your all important fresh blood you have to act.... quickly. If they are competent they probably have a statistic that tells them how many people uninstalled the game after eating one TOW to much. Clearly, that number was to high for their liking and if you are honest, the game does not look like it has overwhelming player numbers right now. TOW will be buffed 99 %. Just not now.

 

On 1.9.2017 at 3:41 AM, Alrenous said:

Humans cannot balance weapons before a game cycles out of being played.

Humans are generally incapable of perfection. They are however quite capable of reaching a point very close to it. 

 

Close enough is however something 99,99 %  of people are quite happy with. The 10 people on earth that can still manage an advantage are of no concern to the population overall.

 

On 1.9.2017 at 3:41 AM, Alrenous said:

It's provably impossible with linear power score because weapon power doesn't scale linearly.

It would be impossible, but we have more than just PS to balance usage in numbers. Energy, weight, building hitbox.

 

A point many people are missing is with the exception of PVE, it is not the highest PS that wins. It is just the most efficient one.

 

Of course the system needs work. We are in Beta after all. It still is a sound concept, which is more than Freejam managed until the last few months.

 

On 1.9.2017 at 3:41 AM, Alrenous said:

This is why sealclubbing builds are normally glass cannons. Armour does stack linearly, but guns do not. Result: trading armour for guns will always be the best choice. Due to energy limits, at high PS this isn't possible, but one can then trade down the PS scale by stripping armour, while maintaining firepower. Actually armour stacks sub-linearly because at some point it's best to degun them, at which point further armour is almost pointless.

 

Armor is indeed to expensive in PS compared to weapons. Ideally, there would be some game mechancis that makes adding armor above the degun point still valuable. Enclosed weapons basically have this to some extent.

 

 

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Anyone who thinks of this as not fitting look into a series and tabletop game called DUST Warfare and DUST Tactics. It's an alternate WWII. it's like this

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5 hours ago, Trashdead42 said:

Where is update in ps4 no forget ps4 please Crossout is veryy goood

How about learning to read ?? It's been said on hundreds of occasions. That console update come a week after. 

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How about this, if the fuze deployer its destroyed it should explode, since it contains the explosive drones, so it they are triggered *ahem* they should blow up, and bring down any other fuze deployers with them, it doesn't have to be the case for the other drones, they are somewhat manageable.

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4 hours ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:

How about this, if the fuze deployer its destroyed it should explode, since it contains the explosive drones, so it they are triggered *ahem* they should blow up, and bring down any other fuze deployers with them, it doesn't have to be the case for the other drones, they are somewhat manageable.

I feel that would be a very fair addition.  Make it so it does enough damage to destroy any adjacent fuse deployers to cause a chain reaction if you have more than one then people wouldn't want to spam them.

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On 9/1/2017 at 9:48 PM, xXThunderFlameXx said:

that will sure be totally not like Mad Max(for the reference I haven't watched it so I have no idea what I'm talking about)

  Reveal hidden contents

Lemme actually see what all of that is about.

Okay I get it, sorry.

Watch Mad Max fury road and you'll see that most of the game's parts look and behave like those in the movie. Plus the concept is the same.

Regardless of this fact, I recommend watching the movie as it is a nice movie and I am sure you'll like it (after you watch it you'd want to go back to Crossout and play :P)

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16 hours ago, Volk_X said:

Watch Mad Max fury road and you'll see that most of the game's parts look and behave like those in the movie. Plus the concept is the same.

Regardless of this fact, I recommend watching the movie as it is a nice movie and I am sure you'll like it (after you watch it you'd want to go back to Crossout and play :P)

Alright, watched the movie, plenty of explosive spear and flamethrower action, other than that its not much they could get inspired from, machineguns and cannons are almost non-existant, and one thing that really bothered me sometimes was that they kept wasting all kinds of things, water, bullets, fuel, plotwise its meh, go to that Oasis thing, find out its dead, go back to the citadel and make it for a better place, it was all about the car action, but that doesn't change anything, there isn't written anywhere that this is the game version of Mad Max, period.

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1 hour ago, xXThunderFlameXx said:

Alright, watched the movie, plenty of explosive spear and flamethrower action, other than that its not much they could get inspired from, machineguns and cannons are almost non-existant, and one thing that really bothered me sometimes was that they kept wasting all kinds of things, water, bullets, fuel, plotwise its meh, go to that Oasis thing, find out its dead, go back to the citadel and make it for a better place, it was all about the car action, but that doesn't change anything, there isn't written anywhere that this is the game version of Mad Max, period.

Actually, the futuristic part and other stuff that do not come from Mad Max is heavily inspired by Ex Machina ( Hard Truck: Apocalypse, my most favourited single player game of all time, highly recommend getting it on Steam ) which is also made Crossout developers but in 2005. That game is also by global planet catastrophe and driving combat trucks. If that game didn't exist we propably wouldn't have Crossout.

Edited by GentlemanRevvnar
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3 hours ago, GentlemanRevvnar said:

Actually, the futuristic part and other stuff that do not come from Mad Max

Yeah that's what I said, and I'm not going to play that game to prove my point again.

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regarding  the MAD MAX comments, having watched all five movies numerous times they are very focused on a small region, never explicitly stating where, other than Australia, & the MAD MAX 'world' was never expanded beyond whats seen in those movies & comics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_(franchise) , the dawn children & many other 'fictional' factions could exist withing this Fictional universe, Cossack Hover dancers, Kilt wear FREEDOM fighters, aliens from Area 51, Teutonic Knights, mutant polar bears or unicorn ponies are all possible in a make believe sci-fi game created by people making a GAME for an international consumer base whose tastes vary  widely & daily

Its LEGO with guns people, make it, build it, race it, enjoy it, or complain or not, 

if ya want MAD MAX, build mad max, play like max and shoot all the heretics ruining your MAD MAX experience, 

Shoot ALL the things, 

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Guest Drackul74

HERE IS AN IDEA, NERF THE DAMN DRONES OR MYSELF AND MY CLAN STOP SPENDING MONEY ON THIS GAME... YOU WANT TO LOSE 30 PEOPLE AND PROBABLY A **** TON MORE THAT'S FINE WATCH YOUR GAME DIE!!! PEOPLE ARE SICK OF OVER POWERED **** DRONES!!!

 

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I do not like Dawns Children Hovers and Lasers, they should be in another Game with the Knights Crossbows and Fuze stuff.

Armor theme: Make some groups, one is better against Gatling/MG bullets, another against rocket/guns splash and so on. Its because Armor is nearly obsolete at the moment or should not called Armor with these little strukture they have.

Do not see customers as cash cow and bring one OP stuff after an other in short intervals, better make some kind of Premium Account to progress faster (more EXP, more resources,...more.....)

Finaly do not annoy your Playerbase, its always hard to bring back lost customers.

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Guest pafciu
2 hours ago, Guest Drackul74 said:

HERE IS AN IDEA, NERF THE DAMN DRONES OR MYSELF AND MY CLAN STOP SPENDING MONEY ON THIS GAME... YOU WANT TO LOSE 30 PEOPLE AND PROBABLY A **** TON MORE THAT'S FINE WATCH YOUR GAME DIE!!! PEOPLE ARE SICK OF OVER POWERED **** DRONES!!!

 

Well I don't know. I drive forward, press F and win the game. I kinda like it.

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Guest xxxx drones

the wheel drones needs to have aim or hit ratio lowered is insane then 4 drones can kill you in for 4 sec

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More than two years in development and you have learned absolutely NOTHING about balance. Absoluetly nil. Each and every update you just break something else instead of listening to feedback, testing whether the information the players share is true, and responding accordingly. It has been almost 14 days yet you did not even bother to release a hotfix to take care of this mess. I am completely speechless. I had no expectations whatsoever and yet you STILL managed to dissapoint me, and the rest of the community.

 

No dice, you people, are either stupid, incompetent, or both. There is absolutely no other conclusion I can draw from this other that you not only have no idea what you are doing, but that you lack even the slightest semblance of common sense.

How about, instead of trying your damnest to force people to spend cash by forcing them into stupidly difficult and unrewarding raids, you instead started to fix your mess so you can actually present a well crafted game to draw paying customers to?

But of course, ignore this feedback, you know better how to drive this project into the ground than some stupid beta tester than knows the game in and out and actually has some semblance of how the game is supposed to work and play like, right?

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Guest pafciu
On 29.09.2017 at 7:27 AM, GibSlater said:

You must be the same way with your toaster. 

Nice. You know completely nothing about me but it doesn't stop you from insulting me.

I am afraid you, sir, are a moron.

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Guest Saldar
On 29/09/2017 at 11:30 PM, Guest xxxx drones said:

the wheel drones needs to have aim or hit ratio lowered is insane then 4 drones can kill you in for 4 sec

The problem isn't the drones, they are fine as it is, the problem is the number of drone users allowed per game. Everyone and their grandma looks to to have a drone pod on their build.

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