SpeedLocked

Raid (hard vs TOO hard) scaling with PS

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  1. An explanation, what have you noticed or what has happened. Raids Scaling is "Flawed" (I tried to think of the best word here, broken, flawed, inconsistent etc)
  2. What did you expect to see/happen On many occasions since raid scaling was introduced the PS of team doing the raid cannot complete the raid no matter of: PS, repair kits use, tactics, enemy faction etc. doing the same raid with same team against same enemy one after another can give loss or win rates wildly different from previous run through with the only things changed being CrossOut
  3. How to recreate the situation Play raids, stream results, (it would be a good watch, No edits, No cuts just raw effort)
  4. Details.  many related posts & no guides, no play throughs by Streamers, GM or Dev's showing it can be done gives the message there's more going on than Ability or loadout.
  5. Bug frequency - How often does the issue occur? Inconsistencies in outcome of raids given the Team & Load-Out are the same shows the raid itself is inconsistent, (frequency, As intended)

So this is a bit of a catch all for current raid situation.  

After 2500 raids I have done, my success rate now hovers around 30% prior to PS scaling at least 75% (averages, faction of enemy severely affects % win rate. i know no-one who does lunatics vollenteraliy for example) , given the time, effort, gear, tactics, great teamwork this is unsustainable, 50% I can deal with, less than that destroys Pve content for many, currently I use my free gas chasing season, only buying gas to help friends with theirs, (good friends are harder to find than gas)  

some screenshots as example

screenshot-180522-201555.thumb.jpg.fc738

Above you can see how far my truck drove from spawn (the cross hairs), note the destroyed raider missile turret, that turret shot me  on spawn, taking me from 1799 durability down to 835. thats 964 explosive damage (so more to surrounding structure than the numbers show) from one volly (missile) at spawn before I could start moving or shooting...screenshot-180522-202901.thumb.jpg.e2503

Above show the durability total for comparison

screenshot-180522-201755.thumb.jpg.92d9d

here how the team stacked up, PS average of ~9.6k PS 

If the average PS of our team was 5k PS would that mean the damage from a missile turret would be half also? at almost 500 that would be unbalanced, 900 +damage from one hit seem unbalanced at 10k..

 

this along with the pump jack getting onshoted, repair kits costs yet even with that cost the raid will fail, lunatics faction & some raids avoided totally brings the scaling to need a looking at.

Raid participation decline, the more this continues the less play raids, some quit playing CrossOut all together, Less players is not good 

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The hard raids at the current upgrade level. Should require 7k and higher builds. Very very very few 5k players can handle hard raids. And they will still need an 8k + build as a meat shield.

If you have not returned to play after 1 minute. 72 hour ban from raid missions if did not use free return. Those that use the free return and then sit out. Raids for the next 72 hours cost twice the fuel. Will force the hard raid free riders to go back down to easier / normal raids. More then half the hard raid fails is due to players to cheep to return. And if you are that broke to make repair packs you do not need hard raid rewards.

Defending a tower in raids with mandrakes. Just shows how much they do not understand the game. If they do then they puck in the mandrakes just to giggle like little girls. Dev pull wings off flies just for the kicks. They should not target the tower with mandrakes unless Ace players like camping the tower and drawing fire.

Basics on the AI for raiders. They make timed agro checks. If you are camping the tower they will target the tower on chance. You go out meet them far enough away from the tower you can find out there is a patch for keeping the tower at 100%. Until they randomize the spawn locations.

Most raid missions are easy. Also there is no timer so stop playing like there is one. Use one blueprint slot to build a weapon base vehicle. Mount weapon that is needed for missions and the rest best distance weapons that require no ammo. PS is not an issue. Well until they get smart and have a spawn rate reflect the teams total PS. Number of red raider balance. Maybe 5k groups could do hard raids if the amount of spawn reflected the teams strength. I have been on 8k - 10k teams with pure MG / auto cannon builds that had no one needed a restart.

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24 minutes ago, VorpralBunny said:

The hard raids at the current upgrade level. Should require 7k and higher builds. Very very very few 5k players can handle hard raids. And they will still need an 8k + build as a meat shield.

If you have not returned to play after 1 minute. 72 hour ban from raid missions if did not use free return. Those that use the free return and then sit out. Raids for the next 72 hours cost twice the fuel. Will force the hard raid free riders to go back down to easier / normal raids. More then half the hard raid fails is due to players to cheep to return. And if you are that broke to make repair packs you do not need hard raid rewards.

Defending a tower in raids with mandrakes. Just shows how much they do not understand the game. If they do then they puck in the mandrakes just to giggle like little girls. Dev pull wings off flies just for the kicks. They should not target the tower with mandrakes unless Ace players like camping the tower and drawing fire.

Basics on the AI for raiders. They make timed agro checks. If you are camping the tower they will target the tower on chance. You go out meet them far enough away from the tower you can find out there is a patch for keeping the tower at 100%. Until they randomize the spawn locations.

Most raid missions are easy. Also there is no timer so stop playing like there is one. Use one blueprint slot to build a weapon base vehicle. Mount weapon that is needed for missions and the rest best distance weapons that require no ammo. PS is not an issue. Well until they get smart and have a spawn rate reflect the teams total PS. Number of red raider balance. Maybe 5k groups could do hard raids if the amount of spawn reflected the teams strength. I have been on 8k - 10k teams with pure MG / auto cannon builds that had no one needed a restart.

But what if I said to you, that you and others with high power score vehicles are the problem and not the 5000 power score player? I do not mean to upset you or insult you, but since the scaling was released, bringing the bare minimum in raids and playing smart seems to me to be proven the better strategy. The smaller you are the smaller the raiders are and the less damage they do. AN experienced player should still be able to use blue weapons , maybe purple tops, to complete a hard raid by playing smart. A Defender can disarm a raider the same as the Aspect. Since raids are all about disarming raiders, what do you need relic weapons for to shoot off some weapon? Mandrakes take a lot to destroy, so maybe killing raider cabin is better but mostly just disarm them and kill them later. Best wishes.

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The ps scalling is just stupid, it makes no sense, the whole point of buying or crafting better parts and increasing the power of your vehicle is to make things easier, you progress to be more powerfull and do the things you used to struggle with faster and easier, is just common sense.

Obviously we can have increased difficulty in order to get higher rewards, but thats what we do when we pick hard raids instead of normal, is just absurd that if i go with a 11k ps build the raid is harder than if i go with a 6k ps build and get the exact same reward at the end, this is the part that makes no sense, increased dificuly for the same reward.

 

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10 hours ago, Heinx said:

if i go with a 11k ps build the raid is harder than if i go with a 6k ps build and get the exact same reward at the end

 as the time it takes also ramps with PS, lower PS takes less time - so greater reward ?!? So much for end game

 

 

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About raid PS scaling:

- I have to admit that I didn't notice any significant change on difficulty (usually I play ~9k PS), apart from the fact that there are huge differences in difficulty depending on the mission and the faction.

Apart from this, I don't like at all the PS scaling concept, for several reasons:

- No motivation for getting more powerful weapons/systems. I do almost any raids with vectors, except for the weapon imposed by season task.

- No motivation for building huge fun/beautiful mechanical monsters. Aesthetic suboptimal bulids will make the grinding even harder.

- Social interaction. I have been criticized and suggested to leave just for having a high PS suboptimal build, making it harder for the other players.

So PS scaling is NO FUN at all. It's a pity that in a buliding game we can't build creative in any game mode. PVP is about minmaxing, with PS scaling PVE is also about minmaxing. So you can only build creative the leviathan, wich has little to do about game progression and anyway you can't drive into combat.

I like the concept of a raid challenge for high end players, but it could be done  by adding another level of raid. Maybe a "extreme raid" that counts x2 in the hard season, but with significative risk to lose. This woud add challenge, make grinding less boring and time consuming for high end players.

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So more Crazy making raids Unnecessary harder. screenshot-180526-135642.thumb.jpg.e31ad

the team, ^ where I died.

screenshot-180526-135931.thumb.jpg.bfc59

^ where I respawned. In the enemy base, with all raiders active, A bunch of missile turrets, retcher bots, & 6+ raiders, resulting in instant death, questions from the team about why I would not respawn. (note this ^ was s was taken on 3rd respawn, same place a 2nd, this time my team was there to help)

screenshot-180526-135626.thumb.jpg.231fb

Zoom.jpg.62c9dffaa5f3b474b1d56d7585d64f8

Green is team position , I died here.

Purple is my spawn.

Red circle area full of raiders, DED!

we were starting at the bottom of the screenshot so were not even at the truck retrieval marked with yellow dot...

 

 

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F* the scaling :)

I always go full in.

There are 1 or 2 raids that are just impossible. No matter with what you go in (even with good players).

But most is ok.

(just done 2 or 3 hard raids with weapons that costs 0.70 coins ... 7 chords)

Edited by _cottton_
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I have noticed a trend,

with PS of over 10k on hard raids with defend Pump Jacks as part of the raid the 10kPS seems to push the damage scaling up beyond Pump survival, making them very hard indeed, 

5 war on fire went sweet as, no problems with Avg. ps of 8K PS, the next 2 had a stray 10k ps & pumps dies fast, with the 2nd wave on the 1st pump... (vs nomads)

the skill, tactics & weapons used were similar, the only noticeable difference was that 10k player, resulting in the pumps dying in the 1st encounter, there's no chance to secure it for the final boss round if it dies in 1st 2 mins

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The Match Maker doesn't exactly help. I just did a Hard raid at 6.6K PS, with a 5.9K, 7.1K and a 10.3K vehicle builds and all the raiders seemed to spawn to scale up to the 10K player. So we were basically playing at a 10K PS game with an average PS of 6.5. All the players wiped before even blowing the charges on the first door.

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From latest update, this improves some of the OP, It does c Raids

General

  • Disabled the mechanic of damage reduction, depending on weapon rarity and raid difficulty.  
  • Now, to lift and drop the cargo in raids, it is required to hold the 'R' key (by default). 
  • Now in easy raids, epic, legendary and relic weapons deal 100% damage.
  • Now in medium raids, legendary and relic weapons deal 100% damage.

The war for fire

  • Now, when the third cargo appears, the players need to protect the truck and not the tower.
  • The mode ends in victory, if the truck is intact, and all the enemies on the map are destroyed.

The last convoy

  • Removed the enemy turret, located next to the player spawn on the map ‘Dead Highway’.
  • Improved the truck's blueprint. It no longer contains explosive modules.

Perimeter breach

  • Fixed a bug where raiders with charges in the ‘Perimeter Breach’ raid could appear in points inaccessible to players.

 

So this didn't address anything directly in relation to OP, & from testing two things stand out more than most 

  1. 10k PS seem to be a line not worth crossing, 
  2. Explosive damage is OP, the raiders structure & damage is (my opinion) about right until explosives go in the mix , 20 mgs firing away all good then one stray missile or grenade & ya done (comments on your experiences wanted)

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another issue with the raids are the season players.

I seen slowass tracks build in chase, that is 70% slower than the convoy itself.
I even seen lowest possible PS with white wheels and maby one blue weapon to get the season count in hardest raids, I know the newbies want to get the good stuff though.
I even seen lance builds rush in and gets killed, respawn and does the same fkn thing again, leaving a hard raid a 3 man job

allmost all hard raids are a russian rulett due to such players

there should be special rules with the raids, like:

For Chase:
no tracks or legs are allowed
your build needs to have acceleration and top speed atleast x ammount

Edited by Sasherz

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Raiders with Homing missiles locking on without line of sight or even detection range for their gear, 

(I get that raiders scale, although this ^^ issue happens in all raid difficulties. at all PS levels so broken)

several post here have raised issues with raiders (the Danger painted Pyre launchers) & the amount of time these take to find, or they are running around preventing Raid advancement to the next part/sequence. 

many only know of this by the constant Beeping from lock on, yet even with the best tech they are not on the map, stuck in inaccessible places etc. 

How can they fire without line of sight?, is this intentional? Is it a bug? 

 

these discrepancies need addressing because they add unnecessary time & frustration to already tedious raids

Edited by SpeedLocked

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I essentially REFUSE to do scavenger hard raids, because the trucks with mandrakes seem to be able to hit everyone on the team no matter where you are because they can see through walls to target you. They also do way, way, way more damage than any players mandrake does. You get caught by the edge of an explosion and it can take half your car off.

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On 5/22/2018 at 2:55 PM, VorpralBunny said:

The hard raids at the current upgrade level. Should require 7k and higher builds. Very very very few 5k players can handle hard raids. And they will still need an 8k + build as a meat shield.

If you have not returned to play after 1 minute. 72 hour ban from raid missions if did not use free return. Those that use the free return and then sit out. Raids for the next 72 hours cost twice the fuel. Will force the hard raid free riders to go back down to easier / normal raids. More then half the hard raid fails is due to players to cheep to return. And if you are that broke to make repair packs you do not need hard raid rewards.

Defending a tower in raids with mandrakes. Just shows how much they do not understand the game. If they do then they puck in the mandrakes just to giggle like little girls. Dev pull wings off flies just for the kicks. They should not target the tower with mandrakes unless Ace players like camping the tower and drawing fire.

Basics on the AI for raiders. They make timed agro checks. If you are camping the tower they will target the tower on chance. You go out meet them far enough away from the tower you can find out there is a patch for keeping the tower at 100%. Until they randomize the spawn locations.

Most raid missions are easy. Also there is no timer so stop playing like there is one. Use one blueprint slot to build a weapon base vehicle. Mount weapon that is needed for missions and the rest best distance weapons that require no ammo. PS is not an issue. Well until they get smart and have a spawn rate reflect the teams total PS. Number of red raider balance. Maybe 5k groups could do hard raids if the amount of spawn reflected the teams strength. I have been on 8k - 10k teams with pure MG / auto cannon builds that had no one needed a restart.

EXDE, It's the opposite raids in 5/6K PS is super easy than high PS raids

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