_Lemmy44_

Suggestion for Vehicle Power adjustment in relation to wheels and pushing/pulling other crafts

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Greetings from the depths of the Wastes, developers and players. Today, I would like to propose a change relating to the way vehicle power is calculated in their relation to used Cabin, wheels and the total weight of the craft. If you'd like me to put it in simpler terms: A final solution to the wedge question!

Recently, I built myself a vehicle using the Icebox cabin that is designed to cause mayhem in close combat scenarios. I instantly felt in love with it and although I've been doing fairly well with it, I've run into many problems. And one in particular I have found very severe to the point where I've run through quite a bit of testing and came to a conclusion that made me type this suggestion. You see, when two adversaries meet in battle and their vehicles touch, it should be expected, that one vehicle would overpower the other. "Well, that's quite simple!" you would say, "What are you getting at here?" And I would ask you, which vehicle did you think would win. "Easy as pie, the one that has more power!" would be the most probable reply. But alas, that would only be wishful thinking. Because the vehicle that would win, would simply be the one that has more wheels. The way vehicle collisions are resolved are extremely reliant on wheels.

This would be best explained using examples. That build I mentioned earlier? It has a pair of Bigfoot wheels and two pairs of Shiv wheels. It weights just above 12.5 metric tons and has tonnage of 17450, using the V8 engine. The cabin has 9 bars of power, increased by another 25% by the engine. The wheels make up a total toll on the power of -88%. It sits at a nice balance of tonnage and acceleration and it has 4834kg of free tonnage and 7414kg of unused weight capacity. That's a lot of extra power to throw around one might think. This is how the info looks:

Truck info

And then the truck meets your average 10k PS Quantum or Torero build. It's probably equipped with a Harvester or something. The info table might look somewhat like the following picture.

219519362_ScreenShot12-15-18at08_01PM.PN

This is my PvE build, slightly adjusted for demonstrative purposes. The tonnage here is capped at 1 kg bellow the maximum mass allowed, so it has been filled completely at 11029kg. No extra tonnage remaining and just a single kilogram of steel (or feathers) of mass remaining to be added to the vehicle. The cabin, in this case is a Quantum, but a Torero would make zero difference, as it has the same mass and power. The cabin has four and a half bars of power, further improved by another 25% with the V8 engine. The wheels should decrease the power by a total of 120%, for whatever that means. Now when these two were to play tug of war, one would think that the truck would have it easy and win over the vehicle that literally spends all of its power to move its own weight, while the Icebox truck has a lot of power to spare. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The truck will not be able to move the Quantum build by an inch, while the Quantum will be able able to push and pull the other vehicle like a ragdoll. Why? Because it has 6 Bigfoots. Therefore, any medium or even light cabin will wipe the floor with any heavy cabin build of the same or even greater weight. It only needs to have more wheels.   

Now if the heavy build was considerably heavier, at some 18 tons, the tables would start to turn, or at the very least, neither vehicle would be able to push the other around. But here's where another advantage of the light builds comes in. If the light build wedges under the heavy one and lifts half of the heavy build's wheels off the ground, the heavy build acts as if it only had half of its weight, while the wedge  suddenly has a surge of power. So instead of being weighted down, they just made everything easier for themselves and all they needed to do was lift a pair of wheels of a larger enemy off the ground. Which is another part of the problem. With its wheels on top of an enemy, a vehicle gets no traction and also its "weight" and power is not counted, because it's absolutely dependent on the number of wheels touching the ground. And it is important to note, that epic wheels count as much more than rare or common wheels. 

To sum this up:

Heavier cabins have lower energy and lower speed. They have greater power, allowing them to keep more of their acceleration when putting on weight. But a lighter build with lower power and acceleration will be able to push a heavy build around, if it has more wheels, which counts as more "grip". The cabin's power or engine does not come into play, or does so minimally, the decisive factor is the number of wheels. Thus, a light build has the advantage of having more energy, while being able to negate it's lower power and carry capacity by installing more wheels, should it try to push others around.

Therefore, I would propose that the mechanics of pushing other vehicles around is reworked into relying way more on the power the vehicles have available, as opposed to the "grip" they have. This alone would help slightly offset the incredible power wedges hold in the game, as simply lifting a portion of an enemy's wheels of the ground would not instantly give them an absolute advantage, as they would be pushing against power and weight of the enemy, instead of their grip. So the weight of a vehicle along with the power both in total and in "free" power should be more important, the grip should only come in secondary.

It would also help, if wheels were given grip against an enemy structure, not to help with calculations, but to allow players to drive off of a wedge. And secondly, if a vehicle sits on top of an enemy, a portion of its weight should be added to the weight of the enemy below, affecting the enemy's speed and acceleration.

In case such a rework would work out to be harmful to tracks, there could be a modifier applied to them, making them either produce more power or count as a greater weight when resolving vehicle contact. Or their grip could be increased further, as it would still be a factor in the mechanic, just not as important as it is at the point of typing this suggestion.

 

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Bumping and pinging for approval. Also, happened to drive behind a bot with 6 Bigfoot Quantum that stopped and started reversing, pushed me back with no issue. So despite reverse speed and acceleration being awfully slow in XO, it's still enough to push a build that's going forward, while reversing.

@Cpt_Nero

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On 12/21/2018 at 5:20 PM, _Lemmy44_ said:

Bumping and pinging for approval. Also, happened to drive behind a bot with 6 Bigfoot Quantum that stopped and started reversing, pushed me back with no issue. So despite reverse speed and acceleration being awfully slow in XO, it's still enough to push a build that's going forward, while reversing.

@Cpt_Nero

Opening up!

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Good ideas.

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Great stuff!

 

This would open up interesting choices to be made when it comes to wheels and other movement options. You see, many of the endgame health bricks use 10-14 Bigfoot wheels in their crafts due to their excellent weight-to-durability ratio. Those crafts have practically zero cabin power because of all the wheels. If you'd take the dozen wheels out and equip few Armored Tracks (or Mechanical legs) instead you'd cover your tonnage but have more cabin power at your disposal. Which means choosing wheels over tracks in this scenario would mean faster top speed and higher health but the tradeoff would be loss of pushing power.

 

IMO when someone goes underneath an enemy, the enemy's full weight should be applied to the craft's own weight thus making them overweight. Obviously this needs to happen gradually as the enemy craft slide on top of you. The game already seems to understand weight distribution since we have a center of gravity indicator in test drive. Just use the same data which places the indicator to the correct position to determine how much of enemy's craft sits on top of you.

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1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

IMO when someone goes underneath an enemy, the enemy's full weight should be applied to the craft's own weight thus making them overweight.

I was thinking about including this in the suggestion also, but I was afraid of being met with the classic dev response of "We want the gameplay to remain more dynamic, so less realism for you." I think that for a start, it would be enough if a player that wedges you wouldn't be able to carry your vehicle simply because some of your wheels are in the air or on top of another vehicle.

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1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

IMO when someone goes underneath an enemy, the enemy's full weight should be applied to the craft's own weight thus making them overweight. Obviously this needs to happen gradually as the enemy craft slide on top of you. The game already seems to understand weight distribution since we have a center of gravity indicator in test drive. Just use the same data which places the indicator to the correct position to determine how much of enemy's craft sits on top of you.

Alternately crushing damage, that'd solve wedges pretty quickly. Tracked builds would have high crushing damage (Say 50 a second) and wheels would have moderate (Depends on the weight of the build you're lifting.).

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I disagree. You can have all the power in the world... but without traction, you shouldn't be pushing anyone around.

The current impact model is more accurate, and I believe it should be maintained.

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4 hours ago, SylentXtinction2 said:

I disagree. You can have all the power in the world... but without traction, you shouldn't be pushing anyone around.

The current impact model is more accurate, and I believe it should be maintained.

Ahh, so a tiny car with six wheels should be allowed to push around a truck with four wheels? (The example I listed was actually 6vs6, but Bigfoot grip is magic) Or maybe if you put a 20 ton truck on top of the roof of your sedan, you should move it just fine since the truck gets no traction? Friction with the ground is not only decided by the number of wheels, but also on the weight that sits on them.

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On 12/16/2018 at 1:44 AM, _Lemmy44_ said:

And secondly, if a vehicle sits on top of an enemy, a portion of its weight should be added to the weight of the enemy below.

Thx Lemmy.

According to wedge problem: Although I agree with necessity to update physics of the game, ^^this is not the right way. Solver should do it naturally as physics do. As I imagine as their engine works, it is called rigid-body mechanics and I am afraid, their rigid body representation is not appropriate in the case of contacts between wheels and vehicle (wheel on the wedge vehicle). Their representation is probably without appropriate properties and they made fictive interaction relations, which is proven as not good enough especially when the interaction between vehicles is taken into account.

According to pushing cars: Their calculations of vehicle tracking force is probably also physically wrong. We all saw absurd situations how the lightweight vehicle overturned a heavy vehicle. I will try to make some experiments.

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On 1/15/2019 at 4:10 PM, gumaak said:

According to wedge problem: Although I agree with necessity to update physics of the game, ^^this is not the right way. Solver should do it naturally as physics do. As I imagine as their engine works, it is called rigid-body mechanics and I am afraid, their rigid body representation is not appropriate in the case of contacts between wheels and vehicle (wheel on the wedge vehicle). Their representation is probably without appropriate properties and they made fictive interaction relations, which is proven as not good enough especially when the interaction between vehicles is taken into account.

I wanna open this up a bit so that people understand what this means.

 

Watch the next 10 minutes of this video (15min to 25min):

 

Spoiler

 

 

All the motion and collision in video games comes from impulses.

 

  • When you hold W key to drive a car forwards the physics engine inputs a bunch of impulses to propel your car forward. Each accumulated impulse will increase the car's speed
  • If you let go of the W key a series of reverse impulses are being applied to your car to slow it down again
  • If you add more weight to your car the forward-propelling impulses get weakened and your acceleration gets slower
  • If you reach the max speed of your car the physics engine will say "no more impulses for you baby" and thus you won't go any faster. A car going straight forward at max speed on a flat surface has no forces being inputted into
  • If you jump from a ledge gravity will manifest itself as downward impulses thus pulling your car back to the ground and preventing it from floating into space
  • Once your car touches the ground the ground inputs a reverse impulse to prevent your car from going through the ground

 

As you can see simulating proper physics in a video game is pretty darn complex. That's why most gamedevs say "F*** it, I'm just gonna use Havok, Bullet or Box2d (a popular 2d physics engine) to do the heavy lifting for me and merely tweak it to suit my game". No idea why on earth the Crossout devs wanna do it the hard way and reinvent the wheel themselves. Targem is likely insane enough to use their in-house physics engine if they were insane enough to use their in-house sound engine (which they fortunately scrapped in favor of FMOD).

 

The reason why the scenario of two cars on top of each other is so awkard is because these impulses aren't being transmitted to the lower car. At all. So when someone says "the physics are poor in such scenario" he's actually saying it wrong. The correct way to say it is: "the physics are non-existent".

 

When two cars are on top of each other:

 

  • The top car thinks it's still suspended in the air. The impulses from gravity are pulling it down but the bottom car is blocking it from entering back down.
  • The bottom car merely injects the reverse impulse to prevent the cars from merging to each other. Other than that it won't acknowledge the existence of the top car in any way and thus can keep driving normally.

 

If you ask me that's pretty bad for a game that's all about cars crashing and piling into each other. :(

 

If the devs don't want to implement third-party physics engine (which I think they really should) here's a quick and dirty way to implement weight of cars onto other cars:

 

  • If a Car A's downwards impulses (aka gravity) is projected to a Car B (or to put it the other way: Car B's reverse impulse, the one that prevents clipping is being projected on Car A), check Car A's current weight
  • Add the current weight of Car A onto the current weight of Car B
  • Check the state of Car B. If it has more weight (which it obviously does) slow down the acceration accordingly. If it becomes overweight, make it behave as if it had become overweight

 

This'll merely be an extension to what the game already does when it comes to weight and car performance. Our cars already speed up in acceleration when we lose armor pieces and our cars become overweight in the heat of the battle if we lose our engine too soon.

 

But I really think the simple solution is to put a Bullet in Crossout, and let it do its thing.

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On 1/21/2019 at 1:45 AM, Spedemix said:

When two cars are on top of each other:

  • The top car thinks it's still suspended in the air. The impulses from gravity are pulling it down but the bottom car is blocking it from entering back down.
  • The bottom car merely injects the reverse impulse to prevent the cars from merging to each other. Other than that it won't acknowledge the existence of the top car in any way and thus can keep driving normally.

If you ask me that's pretty bad for a game that's all about cars crashing and piling into each other. :(

 

If the devs don't want to implement third-party physics engine (which I think they really should) here's a quick and dirty way to implement weight of cars onto other cars:

  • If a Car A's downwards impulses (aka gravity) is projected to a Car B (or to put it the other way: Car B's reverse impulse, the one that prevents clipping is being projected on Car A), check Car A's current weight
  • Add the current weight of Car A onto the current weight of Car B
  • Check the state of Car B. If it has more weight (which it obviously does) slow down the acceration accordingly. If it becomes overweight, make it behave as if it had become overweight

This'll merely be an extension to what the game already does when it comes to weight and car performance. Our cars already speed up in acceleration when we lose armor pieces and our cars become overweight in the heat of the battle if we lose our engine too soon.

I think that sums it up pretty well for situation where a wedge build has lifted another car. I would argue with forces instead of impulses, but the gist would be the same.

Another situation is where both cars have their wheels firmly on the ground. Now the weight and tires' coefficient of friction determine the force the car has to shove other around. In real life physics, the formula is

Force of Car A = Car A's weight multiplied by the coefficient of friction (COF) of Car A's tires. Analog to that, Force of Car B = Car B's weight multiplied by the coefficient of friction (COF) of Car B's tires.

Now if all tires had the same coefficient of friction (COF), the heavier car would always win a tug of war. If the lighter car can push the heavier one around, this can only be justified by its tires having a higher COF, meaning the a better grip. That already appears to be the case with the small tracks. I'll have to acquire some Bigfoot tires for testing :002j:.

This is also relevant for over/understeering:

If the tires on the front axles have a different sideways COF compared to those on the rear axles, it will affect the skidding behavior of the car. I'm already combining small tracks and normal tires to make my cars understeer a bit, that makes it easier to keep the guns on target. I think there is still potential here to make car design a bit more sophisticated :001:. I'l probably expand on that in a separate suggestion thread.

Edited by Evilynne
Fixed sentence structure
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This whole thread is exactly why my Griffon build has two Racing STs in the back, two Landing Gear STs in the front (which I often swap with other, more durable wheels for PVP), and nestled between the Landing Gears, hidden right underneath two of the machine guns, is a Balloon Tire ST. I got tired of being shoved around, and that fifth wheel, plus my Dun Horse, is often more than enough to turn the tables, and also helps in the event I ever lose a wheel.

As for the 6 bigfoot build being able to essentially ragdoll the 2 bigfoot & 2 shiv build, that seems reasonable enough to me. Just because you have power, doesn't mean it'll be enough to overcome the weight of the opposing vehicle. Traction and Weight play into shoving matches even moreso than power. "Used" power doesn't vanish; it gets directed into whatever movement parts are taking it up. The additional power just goes towards acceleration, from what I understand of the game.

That being said, I'm always down for physics improvements, especially if it happens to help with 'the Wedge/Fork issue'. Having no grip on other vehicles has always irritated me in videogames. Would definitely like options to break free from a grapple without having to sacrifice valuable energy for a booster or two, or a harpoon, which I don't have yet.

Crushing damage, IMHO, should definitely respect wheel size, and be a function of "# of Wheels On Other Vehicle" and Top Vehicle Weight. Perhaps more ridgidly built vehicles could 'withstand' it slightly better. A Landing Gear shouldn't have anywhere near as much crushing force as an Agricultural or Bigfoot wheel, for example, and Medium to Heavy tracks should reign supreme, only surpassed by Augers, which should both crush AND grind those foolish enough to wedge underneath to metallic dust.

While we're talking wheels, perhaps we should also bring up the potential to allow some wheels to function inverted? Looking "mostly" at Bigfoot & Agricultural wheels, obviously, but an engineer should still have options. Options are always king in games like this, especially for those who spend the majority of their game time in the garage. FOR SCIENCE!

Edited by DriftRacer14
Said Power instead of Energy.

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That's a really good post @Spedemix, thanks for clearing that up.

For talking about crushing damage, I think all movement parts should deal damage directly underneath them (in line with gravity) similar to how augers do. There's already code for it (augers) and it could easily be modified by your vehicle's mass divided between your movement parts. This would make builds that use high tonnage movement parts like tracks deal much more damage in the "crush zone" than builds with a ton of wheels.

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