Max_Horo

Auto-aim weapon damage, homing and AOE spam

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In any PvP game a player needs to use his skill to land a powerful shot, especially on moving target. Auto-aim weapons could help bad players who can't aim, so they sometimes exist in other games, but the damage output is always extremely weak, because legal aimbot should pay a great price.
Just wanted to create new topic about Hurricane needs nerf, but the weapon balance in general is so poor, that Hurricane is only a tip of the iceberg. I'm playing around 9000PS and this weapon is too popular, too effective and too cheap.
Generally I would prefer to fire game designer who added so many cancerous auto-aim no-skill and AOE spam weapons. Not because I'm being killed by them too often, but because they turn a gameplay into a dull spamfest where everyone is hiding far from the battlefield and try to outspam enemy team shooting in random directions.
In Crossout Rocketeers, for example, do so much damage+they fast moving and could survive a cannon direct hit. When I see them, I have no choice than to retreat.
But the Hurricane is even worse. If you play 8000PS+, you constantly hear this missile approach sound from the first seconds of the battle. You even don't know from where. Person, who launched them doesn't know where you are either - pure cancer. But if I don't have active stealth, chance of avoiding a hit is 15% for my 75km/h car. And the worst thing that auto-aim Hurricane does SO MUCH damage that usually it breaks my 2200 HP armored car in a half, so I have to suicide.
A hover or light vehicle could endlessly hide with hurricanes and spam until you finally get your hit. My proposals for Hurricanes are:
1. Decrease damage.
2. Make them avoidable by moving middle-speed cars.
3. Increase weight to prevent fast cars and hovers from endlessly spamming while speeding 120km/h.
4. Fire game designer. I'm pretty sure that it would be a big holiday for the whole Crossout playerbase. I also suggest a generous game event for this occasion. This poor guy will get some time to play other games, so he could finally discover that 10 sec stealth, AOE spam and auto-aim are killing any PvP gameplay.

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I can't even think why some people ask for hurricanes to be nerfed

They're so bad lol

You can easily hide behind things and the weapon itself it's like one sneeze and it's gone xD

If i'm right, they may be the least used legendaries in clan wars

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Yes, of course they are bad against people who know how to deal with them, high PS and so on, but as you see on forums, they are pretty nasty in lower PS and again, it discourages close range encounters or in some cases it encourages it, for example if i get locked down by Hurricane guy too much, i will try work my way straight towards him and shut him down.

If i were in OP's place, i would rather ask for some advice from more experienced players on how to deal with certain weapons. There is nothing shameful in that, it speeds up the learning process and many people are actually happy to help and give some valuable info, others will troll you and call you n00b, let them do that and take the info they slip while they are trolling you and showing their superior knowledge, it's a win in any way.

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And how to deal with them, my master?
Finding the cover is very situational, considering fact that their vertical trajectory could easily go around most of the covers. If there is no active stealth the best method I've found is moving backwards - in such case I only loose the whole front of my car.

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I never undestood why guided misisles have no lockon time based on current vehicle speed with the shortest being only on a fully stationary vehicle to discourage usage on hovers. No more popping out for half a second and raining death upon the enemy.

Then we have vertical launch which makes most cover ineffective.

 

We dont have a missile defense system either for slower builds who otherwise can do very little but wither the storm.

Their existance makes cloak usage almost mandatory.

 

Perhaps hurricanes are not op.... but they surely could use a good rework.

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Alright, searched for your profile, and as expected, you run a slow brick

The thing is, that's an easy target for most of the weapons, because you're big and slow. Instead of asking for nerfs, maybe think how to avoid them?

And why do you use a brick if you... can't tank?

 

P.S i love so much when people use "confused" reaction on my posts xDxD

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I test different armor between 1500-2200HP while using Echo+Hardened tracks and my 75km/h empowered by Colossus is a middle speed comparing to slow Legs, Armored Tracks and slow "tanky" cabins.
But even having slow vehicle doesn't mean that somebody could tear it in half in one shot using auto-aim from the opposite side of the map NOT EVEN HAVING A DIRECT VISIBILITY of the target.
What kind of weapon design is it?

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@Max_Horo Finding cover in Crossout is not situational at all, you can find it even on the most open maps. I can't teach you basic positioning if you don't know where your build belongs on the map and how to approach different enemy types and also predict what they might do by watching the map. A slow brick belongs on corridors, behind buildings, rocks, corner peeking. Don't tell me you can't reverse fast enough into cover if you're right next to a building or rock because i won't believe it. And rather than focusing on trading shots at long range with the Hurricane guy, make yourself more meaningful to your team and help chew through the enemy team. Usually Hurricane users are the last players on the battlefield while all their teammates died, that should give you an idea about what they actually do a whole match, which is stomping on guys like you who stay in the open with slow bricks and try to hunt down the Hurricane guy who stays back at the longest range possible behind the safety of his team.

Why aren't 35km/h spider users complaining about Hurricanes, but you with a 75km/h build make it seem like it's apocalypse? Also if you have MGs or Shotguns or whatever hitscan weapons, did you know you can actually shoot down the rockets before they even reach you?

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10 minutes ago, S1zzlingH0t said:

@Max_Horo did you know you can actually shoot down the rockets before they even reach you?

Yes, sometimes it helps, but it doesn't mean that Hurricanes were designed properly as well as many other weapons introduced in their overpriced packs.

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1 hour ago, Psiholozeus said:

And why do you use a brick if you... can't tank?

It can tank just fine.... assuming the missiles dont are not launched vertically and come straight on your cabin roof.

 

I still question the wisdom of having a weapon that mandates slow brick gameplay to use a 1000 - 2000 coins movement option only to avoid dying. I still question the excessive need for cloak, a module that does not need any more encouragement to be used.

 

28 minutes ago, S1zzlingH0t said:

Finding cover in Crossout is not situational at all,

Against vertical lauch, it is.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, ARES_IV said:

Against vertical lauch, it is.

I had problems against vertical aswell, but it was just a matter of time until i found and learned to use the spots where vertical can't hit you either and every map has spots like that. I was annoyed about hurricanes aswell in the past.

Edited by S1zzlingH0t

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1 hour ago, Max_Horo said:

I test different armor between 1500-2200HP while using Echo+Hardened tracks and my 75km/h empowered by Colossus is a middle speed comparing to slow Legs, Armored Tracks and slow "tanky" cabins.
But even having slow vehicle doesn't mean that somebody could tear it in half in one shot using auto-aim from the opposite side of the map NOT EVEN HAVING A DIRECT VISIBILITY of the target.
What kind of weapon design is it?

You do know if missiles do have a lock on, you get a warning sound? Yeah?? Maybe you should start start to move at full speed and toward any cover.  Most map on crossout are not totally open maps. Naturally you should able to tell where the enemies would be.  This game need them missiles to keep players off stay on a spot for too long.   I would like dev to add them to bots for raids.  Because I have seen too many bad sniper builds in raid.  I have seen one today has 1 AC and 2 shotgun combo sniper.....:dntknw:

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6 hours ago, Max_Horo said:

1. Decrease damage.
2. Make them avoidable by moving middle-speed cars.
3. Increase weight to prevent fast cars and hovers from endlessly spamming while speeding 120km/h.
4. Fire game designer. I'm pretty sure that it would be a big holiday for the whole Crossout playerbase. I also suggest a generous game event for this occasion. This poor guy will get some time to play other games, so he could finally discover that 10 sec stealth, AOE spam and auto-aim are killing any PvP gameplay.

1. DPS and Total damage are already lower than weapons with same rarity.
2. They are already avoidable. Have you tried using it in the raid? Small fast vehicles easily dodge it. Or in other word, missiles miss them.
3. I can't support this idea anymore. Like it.
4. sometime, dev does something stupid, but he is just ordinary people like us. I don't think this is right time to fire him.

Edited by VisceraCleaner
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It's a bit of a shame how extremely easy - or hard depending on your equipped gear it is to deal with Hurricanes.

 

If you have a cloak, Hurricanes are zero problem. I can't recall the times I hurricane player pops out, shoots at me, I take my aim and lnad a cannon shot on him and cloak, all this while misiles slowly fly towards at me.

 

If you don't have a cloak the Hurricane players often figure that out pretty quickly and keep coming at you knowing you have much harder time dodging the missiles.

 

Using cover is genuinely good tactic - until a hurricane player puts them vertically and shoots them upwards. Suddenly the amount of usable cover spots drops down to one or two per map, sometimes zero like in Fortress. The maps aren't really designed with vertical missiles in mind; most of the scenery is missing their collision so the missiles often straight up fly through all the supposed "cover" like here:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Also another problem with the Veritcal hurricanes is sometimes you don't see where they come from. Really hard to dodge something you cannot see:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The reason why i positioned myself there is because I spotted the hurricane player on my left. I do not see the hurricane so I simply guess and hope the hurricanes land on the scenery. Maybe he shot forward hurricanes, maybe vertical, I don't know. :dntknw: It is almost impossible to predict whether or not the vertical hurricane hits on you or on the cover because you canot see the angle they come at you.

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I don't mind hurricane users that much, the weapon is as flimsy as it gets, they often make tiny top heavy undrivable pieces of junk that makes catching them a breeze, and half the weapons in the game and cloaks make them totally pointless. Sure, sometimes you take an annoying volley from the top. I mostly play a Little Boys wheeled Harpy without cloak wich isn't the worst you can bring against a Hurricane but probably close to it, and I honestly don't mind. If the Hurricane is annoying I'll try to find a way to reach him at full speed and wreck his **** knowing he will be a very easy kill even if his team tries to protect him.

Hovercanes... Why would you even put hovers on a car that doesn't need to dodge and doesn't need to be particularly stable to fire? I Don't know, I think hovercanes are extremely dumb >.>. It's that thing you play when you like to be the last man standing in your team before a defeat, I guess. I prefer the victory screen but to each their own.

 

@S1zzlingH0tI wouldn't just say hitscan weapons. Autocannons are godlike at shooting missiles aimed at you because of the projectile's hitbox, and cannons can do the job juste fine against a salvo thanks to the blast. Just sit and don't miss your shot... IF you have the time, ofc.
I'm not totally sure, but it seems to me that hurricane and pyre missiles have 10 hps, can anyone confirm this? MGs seem to fail to detonate them with a single shot. And what's the durability of a TOW Missile, if anyone knows?

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15 hours ago, Max_Horo said:

In any PvP game a player needs to use his skill to land a powerful shot

World of Warcraft or Eve Online? No?

Anyway: Spark. Yes, it's that easy.

Edited by *Jomar_SL

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16 hours ago, Max_Horo said:

In any PvP game a player needs to use his skill to land a powerful shot, especially on moving target.

I'll answer that bit specifically because it always irks me a bit when people say stuff like that. It seems to be a deep-rooted trend that probably dates from the first online PC games. I remember friends who played CS calling the shotgun a noobstick "for people who can't aim". I LOVED the noobstick, I knew it by heart. No dispersion on a ladder or when you jump? Allowed to bunny hop and still maintain accuracy? I'll take it! They all believed that sitting in a corner with a one-shot scoped rifle took more skill than playing the shotgun, but I didn't care about their xxxx opinions, I was too busy learning every jump you can make on every map to wreck people with superior mobility. Man, they laughed so hard when I switched to the MG... But I was too busy learning to deliver good suppressive fire and counting my opponents shots to rush in when they were reloading.

Quake 3? What takes more "skill"? The railgun? Predicting trajectories of opponents with the rocket launcher? Knowing when and how to prefire grenades? Bunny hops? Rocket jumps? Wall-surfing with a plasma rifle(maaaan that one is so hard)? A friend of mine won a CTF tournament and he always told me the thing he found the easiest but most important and overlooked... Was to look at the clock when you pick up a power-up and take a mental note of when it'll respawn. So... What is "skill" in a video game, honestly? Just pure reflexes and precise mouse movement? Learning every keyboard shortcuts and typing madly a sequence you learned by heart like most RTS turn into when you try to go multiplayer? Or a combination of everything?

In Crossout, I'll be honest, I don't shoot that well. I'm not that guy who holds the trigger from afar with rapiers, but I'm not one of those sharpshooters who degun you from the other side of the map with a turreted cannon. So in order to "land a powerful shot" as you say, I simply use my driving skills. And shooting with guided missiles is the same, it doesn't require the exceptional skill of pointing and clicking (slight sarcasm here), but it requires you to look at your radar, figure who can defend against your missiles and who can't, finding an angle that won'tscrew you up and turn you into a sitting duck for like 30s, etc... I recently acquired a Pyre and it's lots of fun to use and has tons of potential for area denial and confusing your opponents, but honestly if I wanted something easier to use I'd pick a cannon... I mean you just find a target, aim slightly higher and shoot, that's not rocket science.

TL;DR don't be that cloakless cannon dude who rushes in the open, gets locked on and then starts doing donuts before flipping on the roof, exposing his ammo boxes.

Edited by Clebardman
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I don't agree at all with easy to use weapons being powerful. That is not logical. I know there are people who don't invest that much into becoming very skilled and/or don't like struggling with high skill cap weapons, so devs try to satisfy them by also providing easy to use weapons to maintain the fun for the average player, Crossout is not the only game that does it, but it's the only one i played that does it to a shameful exaggerated extent like this. At least if you do this as a dev, keep it out of the competitive area. "Features" like these should be used in early stages of the player's process of introduction to the game. The best and most successful games out there go by the logic of balancing ingame content by difficulty to use to be effective. That makes it fun for everyone and gives a choice to the players on what to use and what to pursue as goals in the game by individual preference. Easy to use content should be OBVIOUSLY weaker and less effective, while higher difficulty content should be gradually harder to master and use, but also the most effective if used properly.

Let me show you just one example on how big of a discrepancy is even between melee weapons, which are supposed to be HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD:

Since the introduction and rework of Oculus, you now have a chance of actually knowing when melee is approaching you cloaked and if you make good use of the module, it gives you alot of information.

Full lancelot: easy to leave him without lances if he makes the wrong moves or you are good enough to counter him, lancelot user actually has to think about how to approach enemies to be effective, high risk high reward, if you make a mistake, he clicks you instantly

Spark + double Harvester: alot of durability, basically an extremely dangerous close range tank that can afford without a sweat to expose himself before taking you out in mere second(s)

Spark + Harvester + Lancelot: by far the most dangerous melee combo that can take you out in one hit, can also afford to lose lances, because of how effective is Spark with a SINGLE Harvester and how durable the whole setup still is

The latter two that i mentioned can take multiple cannon shots or sustained dps with MGs or other weapons, before they finally lose their weapons that also act as alot of armor, the worst being that you get severely debuffed by Spark while you are trying to deal with them. 

Where is the high risk high reward aspect in them? What do they actually require to be able to outplay others? Tactics? Drawbacks? Where are they?

Edited by S1zzlingH0t
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5 hours ago, S1zzlingH0t said:

I don't agree at all with easy to use weapons being powerful.

Exactly my thoughts. Don't forget that we are playing 3-rd person shooter where people are competing at shooting accuracy which is particularly difficult because both you and your enemy are fast moving cars.
Landing shots on moving targets or catching the enemy with a melee weapon is a kinda ... the main point of the whole game isn't it?
And when I see completely automated weapons and drones - I also notice how the gameplay turns into a stupid childish mess where everything you need is to stay OUT OF BATTLE and spam, spam, spam. No need to see your enemy, you can just SHOOT INTO THE SKY.

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12 minutes ago, Max_Horo said:

Exactly my thoughts. Don't forget that we are playing 3-rd person shooter where people are competing at shooting accuracy which is particularly difficult because both you and your enemy are fast moving cars.
Landing shots on moving targets or catching the enemy with a melee weapon is a kinda ... the main point of the whole game isn't it?
And when I see completely automated weapons and drones - I also notice how the gameplay turns into a stupid childish mess where everything you need is to stay OUT OF BATTLE and spam, spam, spam. No need to see your enemy, you can just SHOOT INTO THE SKY.

Most of them AI weapons are support use.  Alone, none of the builds should have power to overcome another types of builds. eg... Many players won't shoot wheel drones. Sure, they are slow and do get lost, but when 2 or 3 able to lock their guns at you, your HP do wear down quite fast.  I did like my missile turret when players unaware or was too close to them. 2 shots from them deal major damage to most builds. The turret has very low HP, knowing when to release them is the key.

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Umm, maybe homing missiles should be laser guided (something like in the video)

 

This will make them more competitive in some cases, and also more skilled base, 'cause you can't just shoot and hide 

To control them will be another challenge, so more skill needed

And if someone wants to shoot from across the map, behind covers, it will need to stay exposed to the enemies

And no more wasted missiles on cloaked enemies, you can actually deal with them if you can predict their position, like other weapons in the game

What do you think?

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33 minutes ago, Psiholozeus said:

What do you think?

I think that it is a brilliant idea. You'll have the ability to guide missiles, though you are exposed while aiming. Skill + balance.

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8 hours ago, Psiholozeus said:

Umm, maybe homing missiles should be laser guided...

Already suggested long time ago. Btw that half-life player did too complicated trajectories. A simple spiral is effective too.

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10 hours ago, Psiholozeus said:

Umm, maybe homing missiles should be laser guided (something like in the video)

 

This will make them more competitive in some cases, and also more skilled base, 'cause you can't just shoot and hide 

To control them will be another challenge, so more skill needed

And if someone wants to shoot from across the map, behind covers, it will need to stay exposed to the enemies

And no more wasted missiles on cloaked enemies, you can actually deal with them if you can predict their position, like other weapons in the game

What do you think?

Then they can't be used on any build that's not a guided missile build. So they're pretty much completely worthless since they're a sh!t primary weapon and they can't be used as a secondary weapon.

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Why do auto aim weapons even exist in this game? They can remove them completely and I would perfectly fine with it.

Today I saw a guy who wasnt even playing, just sitting there(his build never left his spawn) pooping out fuzes that destroyed two enemies. He made kills without even being there(because I'm 100% certain he was using a script). Granted yes, the builds he blew up were damaged, but he 'did it' without actually doing anything. Thats worse than Hold-W-to-Kill-lances. And the devs gave us grenadier drones on top. Yay fun...

Hurricanes are still stupidly easy to use. Very common are little cars with growls racing around the map and firing moonmissiles at everyone(they just fire at anyone they see, they dont choose 'easy' targets, but then someone who is preoocupied with your teammate is an easy target). You are capping point on Rock city and someone fires moonmissiles at you from one of the bridges, where will you hide? Use chameloeon and give up cap? Several cases where its an issue, especially problematic in domination. Your enemy just stopped cap without even aiming a gun at you. Mounting the upwards shouldnt even be possible and such limitation has been suggested multiple times now.

Yes, I can avoid getting hit by missiles, but thats not even the point(if my teammates cant, I'm still screwed). The point is that people need to aim and shoot their own guns, not have the AI do it for them. Plenty of weapons that do not require compensating for projectile drop or leading targets, like machineguns.

I'm fine with them being nerfed into the ground or removed entirely.

On 6/9/2019 at 12:10 PM, ChopChopChop said:

Many players won't shoot wheel drones

Shoot 6-7 of them and get less than 100pts. If you have a cannon and you have to shoot them you are literally wasting ammo. But the person using the drones gets full reward for assist and kills. Why not cut down the reward when using auto aim weapons by 50%(or like in patrol really). You didnt shoot anything, you shouldnt be rewarded for the AI doing the job. You get half from driving around.

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