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I checked the thread history and saw no comprehensive suggestion thread about Hovers. We have one with Legs, so let's have another one with Hovers.

 

Like ML 200, Icarus hovers suffer from some fundamental issues which prevent the movement part from being balanced corectly. Some deep under-the-hood changes are necessary before some real balance can be struck with both Legs and Hovers. Unlike with legs where these issues manifest themselves as legs always being somewhat underpowered, the problem with Hovers is the opposite where the fundamental design of hovers will always make them overpowered at some powerscore.

 

Since no one is willing or able to document accurately what is exactly the problem with hovers, fine...

anigif_sub-buzz-25709-1522055453-1.gif

I did with Legs, I'll do it again with Hovers if that's what's needed.

 

Let's start with two basic suggestions. One deals with somewhat minor thing which ought to be relatively easy to correct. The other with one of the fundamental reasons why hovers are the way they are.

 

 

1. Change the acceleration curve to take drag into account. In other words: slow the acceleration down as the hovercraft approaches speed cap.

 

Most crafts in this game have an acceleration curve where the acceleration slows down the closer you are to your craft's max speed. This simulates drag, aka air resistance due to fact how the craft is moving at high speeds. So acceleration starts out fast but then slows down as you reach higher speeds. Due to the bumpy terrain in this game, most wheeled crafts actually never spend any significant amount of time at their speed limit, especially the faster ones.

 

Hovers' acceleration is completely linear. Their acceleration doesn't slow down as you near the max speed. Because of this even the heaviest Typhoon Hovers with an Echo cabin will accelerate to a max speed in under 50m:

 

Spoiler

 

This thing has 10 hovers which is is the highest amount people tend to use. 9 or 8 hovers with the corresponding weight would accelerate this craft even faster.

 

I also took a popular shotgun wedge build from exhib for comparison:

 

Spoiler

 

It reaches 60km/h at 50m and 90km/h at 200m. It could probably catch up the Echo hover at the 200m mark provided the hover doesn't shoot the shotgunner and stun it. Maybe that'd happen in Narnia.

 

Cars suffer from air resistance at high speeds, hovers should be no different.

 

 

2. Remove the "high resistance to flipping" or tone it down significantly especially on front-back axis.

 

This is one of the major reasons why hovers are the way they are, both in high PS and low PS. In high PS people can get away with equipping high-recoil weapons onto hovers due to fact it is almost impossible to flip a hover onto its roof. On low PS, people create impossibly narrow sideways builds allowing them to seal-club on an unseen level.

 

I mean look at this:

 

Spoiler

 

No other movement part is able to function like this, not even legs (if you make your sideways leg build too narrow it'll tip over to its side).

 

When designing a build for any other movement type, you need to be mindful about designing the craft so that it doesn't flip over. You can't design a fast wheeled craft where the wheels are too narrow, otherwise the craft might tip over on sharp turns. When designing crafts for high-recoil weapons you need to be super mindful about how low can the center of weight to be placed.

 

With hovercrafts all that goes out of the window since they just don't have to care about issues like high center of weight or high-recoil weapons flipping them over.

 

If the resistance to flipping was to be removed it'd have few important effects. First of all, these tiny  seal-clubbing hovers would be history as it is because no craft built like the one in the videoclip would stay upright. Sideways hovercrafts would still exist but now they'd be wider in order to provide more stability. People would be more wary about slapping Typhoons etc. on roofs of their hovercrafts since the high center of weight+recoil might throw them on their roofs.

 

More importantly what this change would not affect are hovercrafts wielding Dawn Children weapons like Helios or Pulsar. These weapons have zero recoil so using them on hovers won't be a problem. Also front facing hovers would be largely unaffected. Due to the way Icarus is designed, even if you'd place place hovers along a 4 blocks wide frame, the overall width of the craft would end up being roughly the same as the current biggest sideways Typhoon hovers.

 

This change would also not affect Faction and pack builds. All of the faction/pack designs (apart from Mercury XIII) have been built with stability in mind and show no signs of flipping over whatsoever.

Edited by Spedemix
typos and more typos
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Hello!
We appreciate the suggestion but cannot approve it at this current time.
It will be kept here in case Approved at a later date, or a similar suggestion has already been approved. :salute:

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Allright. In the meantime I'll be adding more resources to this thread so it'll be more complete by the time it gets approved (if it gets approved).

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I will now explain the reason why hovers are capable of reaching places no other builds can even when a hovercraft doesn't seemingly possess the required climbing power to scale the slope.

 

Have a look at this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

You prob noticed how the hover "bounces" when driving uphill at a fast speed.

 

Now here's a break down what is exactly happening here:

 

Spoiler

3rxZpmN.png

 

This is the reason why hovercrafts can scale kinds of slopes up which in theory they shouldn't be able to climb at all. It's also the reason why hovercrafts are the fastest climbers in the game per weight. Other crafts slow down to a fixed speed while hover lose speed during the ascent after overshoot and gains that speed back once the craft corrects itself while in the air, thus resulting in an overall higher net speed (and therefore faster time to make the climb).

 

When hovercrafts reach some of those unreachable places in maps like Founder's Canyon it often involves doing a single bounce cycle gainst an impossibly steep slope. For that you need a craft with more than four hovers (this cricket hover can't reach those places) in order for your hovercraft to float at a higher elevation to begin with. This way your hovercraft doesn't come into physical contact with the steep sloped ground when you attempt an overshoot. Back in 2018 when hovers hovered at a lower suspension I recall they couldn't reach these places despite boasting a higher top speed.

 

So, what do about it? We know the devs have acknowleged this is a problem and are working on a fix. Here's my solution:

 

Changing the bounce mechanic isn't right IMO. However, removing the hovercraft's ability to autocorrect itself would solve this issue. Not only does it fix the balance issues I've depicted earlier, it also prevents the craft from stabilizing while up in the air and thus being able to gain more speed. If a hovercraft overshoots and flies up high, once the gravity starts working, the hovercraft will merely stall like an aeroplane. The nose points up so you can't gain forwards speed and thus you'll be losing (or tops maintaining) speed even after the craft has plateaued.

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Suggestion opened up to gather more feedback. :salute:


Will need some adjustments but I like what your on to

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Fair enough. :)

 

I'll try rethink some of these and perhaps other people will also give adjustment feedback.

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Yeah, the free flip-over that hovers have doesn't make sense. If a jet engine points down, it goes down. A hover that flips over from recoil or bad driving should be forcing itself into the ground or at least skitter around, and certainly shouldn't get a free car jack.

It's literally the only mobility part in the game with no consequences for bad driving or design (ignoring outside factors). If tracks or augers start tipping, they can begin to twirl unpredictably. Wheel vehicle turning radius relies on good building, and legs kinda "give up" in certain situations that drivers must avoid.

If such a mechanic where hovers can basically lose control is ever added, hovers would need an "off button" or handbrake equivalent so it could feasibly right itself.

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IMO hovers shouldn't retain that much control when in the air or on the side/flipped. No other movement part can do it, and it's a problem both in races and in combat.

Edited by Clebardman
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Hovers are fast and highly maneuverable... That is one of the benefits of them and I can live with that, if there was a chance to stop them. But there is none. I mean, the acceleration won't a big problem if you were able to shoot and destroy the hovercrafts to slow them considerable down. But on a sideway build they are so deeply built-in, that they are very hard to hit. So imo, just remove the ability to build sideway hovers (applies also to other movement parts). That will solve this and other problems.

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Definitely agree that they should be easier to flip. not necessarily stay flipped when they end up on their back. But the recoil management is a great point and should be looked at. I don't think the acceleration needs changed but it would be interesting to see that tested. 

Also, With the hover changes on test server they will be even more powerful. The climbing capability and armor hovers currently have is crazy. A better way to approach whatever there trying to do would have been to fix radar spam and see how meta hover builds stay. Rather than giving them another buff and ignoring radar spam as an issue.

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Make no mistake. The fact hovers correct themselves back up once flipped affects the outcome of encounters.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Spedemix
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everything in this thread is 100% true, hovers have been an issue ever since they came out and since they're going anywhere they might as well be balanced. My biggest issues and the one that drives me mad is the instant linear acceleration, this makes it almost impossible for shotgun builds, like u showed in the vid to catch up to them, and that's a build thats 2x the weight of the sg and uses a heavy cab. hovers atm destroy the dichotomy of light and heavy builds, they are both meant to have their strengths and weaknesses, but atm the heavy builds can pile on the armour use the best guns in the game and also remain the most maneuverable by far of any ground build when using hovers. when they are using tracks, legs, or wheels its a fair fight.

in the vids u showed not only did the hover pass 50m at 15kph more, it consequently reached the 50m mark over a second before the car, it may not sound like much but its all the difference. add into that fact that the hover can fly in reverse while firing without issue, and turn any direction instantly and we start to see how they are broken, imo legs are pretty well balanced, i always play wheels but when fighting legs i can have some strategy to the engagement. but with hovers its just try can chase them, while always being behind them and hope they run into a wall so i can get close.

so yeah in closing, the changes on the test server are the bare-minimum, fixing their ability to climb places that no one else can is long overdue. but its time hovers got a serious acceleration nerf and had their "free flip" ability fixed too.

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If you want to get rid of sideways hovers, or at least reduce their usage, change hovers acceleration and top speed in certain directions. Make it so that they can only go at full speed and have full acceleration while going forward, and reduce both stats when moving in other directions. Reduces hovers ability to float around at tops speed backwards shooting at people, and makes sideways hovers much less effecttive when to go full speed they will have to go left or right depending on which way their cabin is facing. They would have to make a backwards build if they want to have full acceleration while moving backwards.

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the devs need to fix hovers asap but i don't really think they care 

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They care, but they only care about keeping the whales happy. Whales love hovers, so they've consistently been at the top of the food chain balance wise since they were introduced.

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Lets bare in mind that hover builds are not indestructible.....

the map and team your with greatly effects the chances of winning or losing.... + the use of mics...

some posts are almost suggesting that every hover build comes with a win button.....

I've had my fair share of being destroyed and taking out hover, typhoons with a dual draco/spark bastion build...

my success depended on my level of focus and my teams...

the map we're on..

The opponents level of focus..

Whether the opponents builds are more suited to defeating the ones me and my team are using..

And the strategies being used to either attack or defend...

If they get nerfed anymore then they may as well be deleted....

 

 

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17 minutes ago, HammeredByNature said:

Lets bare in mind that hover builds are not indestructible.....

some posts are almost suggesting that every hover build comes with a win button.....

Thats just from people who either never played hover, are really really bad players overall or just hate them so much that they want it nerfed to death like speedemix

Its the same as with the SJW's, just because they scream the loudest doesnt mean its representive.

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just want to add the hovers only take -5% power, whereas the bigfoot and light traks take -20% and 15% respectively. hover spam is easy and there's very few downsides if any  

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7 hours ago, Beni_Stingray1 said:

Thats just from people who either never played hover, are really really bad players overall or just hate them so much that they want it nerfed to death like speedemix

Its the same as with the SJW's, just because they scream the loudest doesnt mean its representive.

or because ppl can easily see that something is wrong with how hovers currently operate and ppl like you benefit from their broken status and so defend them to laughable extremes

even hover users and most other ppl can see that they are broken like the kapkans  

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Hovers are extremely heavy for the tonnage they provide(which actually isn't that much). This offsets the power issues.

Last week's update has rendered hovers impractical for racing. I don't know about other game modes, but they're now slow enough wheeled skidcraft can outpace them.

There's no point in nerfing them even further.

 

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They finally nerfed acceleration on hovers when changing direction. The only change they need now is a small speed increase to 80kph to allow oppressors to give full use. The problem was always their acceleration. Leave them alone now please. 

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21 hours ago, RA2lover said:

Hovers are extremely heavy for the tonnage they provide(which actually isn't that much). This offsets the power issues.

Last week's update has rendered hovers impractical for racing. I don't know about other game modes, but they're now slow enough wheeled skidcraft can outpace them.

There's no point in nerfing them even further.

 

balancing hovers and meta based on a largely irrelevant gamemode is dumb..

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14 hours ago, AzraelsGrace said:

They finally nerfed acceleration on hovers when changing direction. The only change they need now is a small speed increase to 80kph to allow oppressors to give full use. The problem was always their acceleration. Leave them alone now please. 

the acceleration has always been the issue and its still an issue, the change they got a few days ago wasn't even a nerf, the inertial dampening only really takes effect when there's no movement input, this was a straight buff for tsunami hovers since now it's easier for them to charge the guns.

Hover acceleration needs to be lowered by a lot ideally by increasing the power for hovers and as stated by op fix its op linear acceleration curve.

if they did what i and others have suggested about the acceleration then i personally wouldn't care if they increased hovers max speed.

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I like that people just post "confused" emojis on posts instead of having an actual well thought out response. Hovers should not have their top speed increased at all. Hell I would reduce it further and cap it at 70kmh personally. They already have overpowered near instant acceleration to their top speed, overpowered ability to never flip over, overpowered ability to handle ANY amount of recoil, float over all water, bumps, and terrain that slows other movement types down, can escape from kapkans with ease because of their acceleration, float over enemy explosives without setting them off(most of the time) and you seriously want them to go faster too? No thanks, they are broken enough as is.

Edited by Crunk_Prime
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