XR57

Alpha, DPS, heat modules and YOU:

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1 hour ago, Qurzo said:

looks like you see weird things in data.

looks like you lie a lot, so here are some other quotes:

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Yup always the same sort people using it as argument not knowing it doesn't exist 

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  On 7/18/2019 at 3:10 PM, XR57 said:

Kruger, Justin; Dunning, David (1999). "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 77 (6): 1121–1134. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.64.2655. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.77.6.1121. PMID 10626367.

Yarkoni, Tal (7 July 2010). "What the Dunning–Kruger effect Is and Isn't". Retrieved 28 July2017.

Haha, thats fast, google bit further maybe you will find why it doesn't exist

So it doesn't exist, and then afterward:

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Statistics like DK effect are interesting

But, once you get your teeth kicked in, suddenly it goes form "not existing" to "interesting." Very interesting.

But this incessant lying of yours is likely why you avoided linking the actual thread your quote was taken from, for fear of people seeing the context:

 

Edited by XR57

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6 hours ago, XR57 said:

looks like you lie a lot, so here are some other quotes:

So it doesn't exist, and then afterward:

But, once you get your teeth kicked in, suddenly it goes form "not existing" to "interesting." Very interesting.

But this incessant lying of yours is likely why you avoided linking the actual thread your quote was taken from, for fear of people seeing the context:

 

Which lie? Nice trick to remove the last part of quote, how desperate are you? And apparently you still do not understand that research such as DK effect cannot be used to label individuals. And apparently also do not know that the same research in other cultures yielded totally different conclusions. That you do it anyhow tells more about you than about the person you are trying to label. I can't help it that you believe your own fabrications in the twisted reality that you are lost in. But keep it to yourself and don't make a fool of yourself.

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10 hours ago, Qurzo said:

Nice trick to remove the last part of quote,

If anything I kept a word extra. You went from "isn't" to "are." Pretty direct contradiction. If you'd just meant "the DK effect isn't real for individuals," you'dve said that from square one, instead of waiting to get smashed before bringing it up. But that's what you do: you revise. At least you sorta learn from your mistakes. Nonetheless, you're a pretty good example of an individual who the DK effect is very, very real for.

Edited by XR57

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On 8/14/2019 at 2:18 AM, XR57 said:

What the heck is DPS and alpha ??

Let's not look at heat weapons yet. First, let's take a simple, single-shot weapon that can fire as soon as it loads. Now, graphing its damage out on the Y axis, and time spent firing on the X:

414255880_alphaisbdpsism.png.cebb077805a

Each time the stairsteps go up, a shot is being fired. As they go to the right, reload time elapses.

  • The true alpha of this weapon, i.e. the damage of the first shot, its instantaneous damage, is the length of the green line. Or the height at which the red line intersects the Y axis; all of these are the same thing. Alpha is valuable in its own right for getting damage out earlier.
  • The DPS (damage per second) of this weapon, is the slope of that same red line. However, bear in mind that a weapon's "damage-in-one-second" may be higher than its extended "damage per second" value, by virtue of an alpha addition; for example, a weapon with 50% more DPS but no alpha (like a laserbeam, with perfectly gradient damage), will not have dealt more damage than the orange staircase until after x=2, where the damage lines would intersect. So, don't take the name to an overly literal degree; what it really means is "total damage output accumulated per second." 

Nomenclature aside, what's important to take away from this is that one "y=mx+b" line is all you need with simple, single-shot weapons. Or more specifically, that the constants m and b can entirely describe a single-shot weapon's damage output over time all on their own (perks notwithstanding, etc).

Suppose you're instead given the tools to modify the height H and length L of steps though. How do changes to these variables alter your damage output, in terms of m and b?

  • First, b is quite simply equal to the value of H. But, H does more than just raise B.
  • The slope will have its rise dictated by H, and run dictated by L, with the slope itself being equal to rise/run=H/L.

So, as an example, suppose you were given the choice to double H, or to halve L; these would both have the same effect on DPS, but doubling H would also come with the benefit of doubling your alpha, making the option to double H superior regardless of what the variables may be.

The values H and L correspond to your damage per shot and reload time, respectively. So next, suppose you have a scorpion hover. You're wondering if equipping a colossus engine is the next priority, or if another scorpion would give you more DPS per unit of energy. A second scorpion obviously gives you double alpha, but it also doubles your DPS, at the cost of 6 energy, for a flat 16.667% DPS bonus per point. Meanwhile, the colossus engine boosts your reload speed by 20%. However, speed is not time: speed is the denominator of time, and adding 20% to that denominator divides time by 1.2, thus decreasing the time and increasing your DPS by 16.667%. It offers DPS no more efficiently a second scorpion, and less alpha, in exchange for some movement speed. There's also the powerscore difference though: the colossus has less than a 10th the powerscore of a second scorpion, so measured in terms of that, a colossus on a solo scorp can look efficient. Plus, a colossus would be a priority over a third scorp DPS wise if that were an option, so it makes sense to equip after two.

But what about heat ??

Now what if I told you, you can put your stairstep equation, in another stairstep equation:

847612280_doublestaggeralphaandslopes.th

It might look complicated, but it's just another staircase, so it's just another "y=mx+b" line. We just have a second m and a second b now: the steeper m is the DPS within a heat cycle, the flatter m is your DPS overall, the shorter is your alpha, and the taller b is your damage per heat cycle, which we'll call your second alpha. Here's a labeled diagram, to make sense of it:

1620271952_doublestaggeralphaandslopesla

"Check frame" refers to a frame of delay at the end of each cycle, I'm not sure if it's the game's rounding or computational or what, but I've accounted for it.

  • ais just a1 times the shots per clip.
     
  • The rise of m1 is a2 minus a1, i.e. minus the first shot. Or, you could say the rise is a1 times all but one shot, to write it in those terms instead.
  • The run of m1 is just the individual shot time, times all shots but the last, i.e. the time it takes to overheat.
  • m1 itself equals its rise/run, so that's  a1(shots-1)/reloadtime(shots-1); cancel out the "shots-1" and you're left with or m1=a1/reloadtime.
     
  • The rise of m2 is just a2, your damage per heat cycle.
  • The run of m2 is just the total cooling time (including that one frame), plus the total firing time (see the labels on the first just upward? take them and put them on the next one for a triangle).
  • m2 itself equals a2 divided by (cooling time+1frame+(reloadtime×shots)).

How heat-based hardware actually works:

(...with respect to the two elements aand m2—damage per heat gague, and overall DPS, respectively):

COOLERS increase your cooldown speed. An epic cooler with its perk active will increase your cooling speed by 100%, doubling it, and thus halving the time taken to cool down. Their speed effects are summed additively, but this only adds to the denominator of time, thus the actual time saved per unit of speed decreases as total speed bonus flatly rises. For example, if you already have 200% cooling speed, and raise it to 300% with another addition, then your time-taken will only go down from one half to one third, rather than from a half down another half to zero, or even from down to half of the half to a quarter. You go down to only a third the original time, meaning you have severe diminishing returns when stacking the effect.

  • The first 100% cooler bonus lowers cooling time to 50%, or 1/2.
  • A 200% cooler bonus lowers cooling time to 66.666%, or 2/3rds; this is only an additional 1/6th or 16.666% of the base time being removed, i.e. only a third the original cooler's effect.

Spoiler alert: these aren't worth stacking. Furthermore, unlike with single-shot reload-based weapons, it takes a while for you to finish shooting, which takes away from the time the cooler is active, hence why coolers have much larger bonuses than reload-rate engines. Ignoring the one frame of delay that coolers won't effect, that means lowering cooling time to 50% on something that cools half the time on its curve (something which takes as long to heat up as cool down) is only like a 25% increase to DPS. On the same gun, a rare cooler would be adding 50% to speed, thus removing a third of the original time, thus adding 16.667% DPS, like a colossus.

RADIATORS increase the time you can fire before overheat, without altering total cooldown time. An epic radiator with its perk active will increase time till overheat by 100%, thus doubling your damage per heat cycle. Their effects are summed additively, so while the first radiator will double your time, the next one will only be adding 100 to 200%, which is just a 50% increase from the present value, unlike multiplicative 100% which in-principle would double your 200 to 400% (i.e. not standard multiplicative).

  • The first 100% radiator bonus increases damage per heat cycle by 100%, which also increases DPS by 100%.
  • A second 100% radiator increases your damage per heat cycle by the same literal 100% value, but now this value is proportionally only 50% of what was already there (of 200%).
  • A third 100% radiator increases your damage per heat cycle by the same literal 100% value, but now this value is proportionally only 33.333% of what was already there (of 300%).
  • A fourth 100% radiator increases your damage per heat cycle by the same literal 100% value, but now this value is proportionally only 25% of what was already there (of 400%).

So, one radiator will add more to m2, AND it adds to a2, which coolers don't effect if you're just squeezing the trigger. And it has a lower powerscore too, because why not?

The (diminishing) case for coolers:

First and foremost: tapfire. If you're pausing every few shots to recover accuracy, and you bring your heat all the way back down in that time, then you'll never overheat in the first place, in which case a cooler can be as good as infinitely many radiators regarding a2. By this point you'll have raised m2 to m1's steepness, meaning from there on all you can do is add guns to raise your alpha and DPS. Usually the short breath of air you're taking in between bursts isn't enough for that though, due to the delay before cooldown begins, etc. You have to be tap firing up to a rather high level of inaccuracy (for coming down to make much cooling time at all)... which is practically hypocritical. When you combine that "subjectivity" with the poor stacking, it's still clearly not worth having more than one cooler. Maybe you equip one instead of a radiators on an autocannon build, if that's your thing.

Secondly, and less-foremost: inter-module stackingTap-fire aside, a radiator is an objectively better choice than a cooler—for your first heat module. But, radiators only stack flatly onward, rather than at a proportional rate. However coolers will not only be undiminished thus far, but they'll actually stack proportionally by new total granted by your first radiator, since they're now cooling off twice as many degrees per second. This is still never a cause to stack them, but it means a cooler might be a better second, third, or fourth pick depending on how much time the gun spends using it. Let's look at shotguns, which don't tap fire much but pop their heat off pretty quickly. Green is two 100% rads, blue is one rad and one cooler:

1413767603_1and1bluevs2radgreenlowerimag

The first curve I've been posting was actually the damage of three lupras, divided by 10 on the Y axis.

All the division does is squish the whole image down though—and for that reason, the comparison lines above it actually represent the comparison lines of all similar shotguns (ignoring perks), provided they have the same time between shots, base shots per cycle, and base cooling time.

You can see that while the radiators give you more a2, the DPS of the coolers does meet it after three heat cycles. Except... that intersect is already at 178.759 on the Y axis, which I just said is divided by 10, so you've already dealt 1770 damage by then, with your... three lupras. That's already a kill/degun, more certainly so if we start using stronger weapons. Even if we're degunning two typhoons/pulsars, only 1900 damage is needed.

But instead of that point, look at this point:

1647568625_1and1bluevs2radgreenupperimag

Actually, it's the point before the "THIS point" at which the blue rake's stagger rises above the green line completely: where you cease to ever drop below the blue curve ever again. But, it's five cycles in. Here's a clearer shot of the capital THIS though:

reshoot.png.dcbeabe0cb6aafdb8592577d5c5f

If you haven't killed your target long before that, they'll have killed you twice over. So at most, you can vouch for adding the cooler on after two rads then?

Well, here's 2 rads and a cooler, vs 3 rads:

1302828248_2and1bluevs3radgreenimage.thu

Oh gee, the 178.759 moved down to 175.729. I instead of having to wait until the nth heat cycle to permenantly rise above at a jillion damage, I can now permanently rise above the radiator curve in... the 4th, at 2908. Which will be higher with higher damage guns, and is still well above the health of two mammoths. And we're shooting with shotguns, which have a very small amount of base fire time compared to their base time spent cooling, so this should be worse for other weapon classes. At best you might prefer the blue curve if you're trying to kill two people in a row, aren't getting degunned in it, and just feel like you have enough alpha2 to cripple people properly. But you can see (I didn't highlight the point) that a2 is just 864 damage on the blue curve, so it won't be enough against pulsar/typhoon health weapons. Although this is with just 3 lupras, but again: higher damage numbers means all the other numbers stretch up too. Multiplying 864 by a number big enough to reach 950, multiplies all your other values by that same number: you'll be doing around 3200 damage by the "true" breakpoint, which is higher than the original 3059.

So there you have it: don't equip more than one cooler, and don't equip it at all unless you either A) plan to tap fire up to high inaccuracy values, and/or B) want to kill multiple people in a row and already have ~2 rads or more equipped (assuming THOSE radiators were even worth it over equipping more guns), if not a bit of both options i.e. already have 1 rad and tap for long periods.

ALSO, certain perks do just favor coolers and/or just disfavor radiators. The breaker perk is an obvious example, since it adds a fixed amount of damage to each cycle that doesn't grow with cycle size. The spectres can also gain the ability to cool off without dropping their perk stack. The aspect has weird implications for both modules; it practically contains the breaker perk, but in addition to that, coolers will cause you to recede further down the perk slope as you tap. Meanwhile the Favorite cabin's perk outright denies cooler use by skipping cooling periods entirely when activated, while at the same scaling its effect off the damage-per-heat-cycle radiators add. Infact, heat-based miniguns more or less require radiators in order to have their perks used. Fidgets might actually disfavor radiators quite a bit, since their perk is basically already a radiator, pushing the rad scaling further ahead by default. But generally, the best response to perks that favor coolers, is to just put your energy towards more guns themselves instead of their preferred modules. Which brings us back to where we were at the end of the reload section, with the scorpion example:

When do I just equip more guns?

Since radiators are generally better than coolers, we'll start on those.

Put simply, starting from one gun, adding a second gun is doubling your alpha1, alpha2, m1, and m2, and giving you a second gun to lose. Adding a radiator just gives you double the alpha2, and m2. In fact, the relation from coolers to radiators, is analogous to the relation from radiators to guns: coolers-vs-rads was "just m2" vs "aAND m2", whereas rads-vs-guns is "just-2's" vs "1's AND 2's" (and health). As you can probably predict, much like coolers, rads shouldn't be picked until you already have two or three of the next thing up (guns). Although, the difference in energy cost changes things, and radiators don't have the denominator-additive scaling of coolers.

If these were 2-energy goblins we were stacking, second gun would increase "1's and 2's" by 100% of their current value, or 50% per unit of energy, while the radiator raises the "2's" by 100% for just a point, but it's just the 2's and no health. I'd call that a win for the goblin, with health and the 1's generally being more important per-percent than the 2's. But, maybe then you can add a rad with the third goblin and call it a tradeoff, and then add more on top after that until you need the next rad. And maybe, eventually, you might stack enough guns, to stack enough rads, for a cooler to be worth it. If you're running an apollo gen.

If these were 3-weapons we were stacking, second gun would increase "1's and 2's" by 100% of their current value, or 33.333% per unit of energy, plus it adds health, while the radiator raises the "2's" by 100% for just a point. The tradeoff is definitely at least on the third gun now, depending on how important health is. With 4-energy weapons, you should almost definitely equip one alongside your third gun. That's either three fours or four threes: twelve energy either way. Which gets back to two scorpions and a colossus being 12 energy to one module. With an epic cab and apollo gen, ~12 on guns leaves 4 energy. So maybe last or second to last point of energy, your 15th or 16th point, you can put a cooler on a non-tap weapon. Or with 5-energy guns like breakers, with their cooler-favoring perk, maybe you equip three breakers for 15 and again spend the last point on a cooler.

There's also powerscore. Powerscore also changes things, but this actually favors guncount if there are just rare weapons we're talking about, like goblins. Though, the higher your guncount is, the more segmented your health pool becomes. This makes each segment added to the pool gradually becomes less advantageous, as explained here (alongside me explaining how much cabin health you need to match your guns):

As a final note, regarding rarity, rare radiators aren't worth using over epics. Even without the perk active, the seal adds a smidge more a2 per unit of powerscore than the chill does, and it adds much more benefit per energy spent to boot. "About the same in one category, can't even compete in another/several others/any other" should sound familiar by now: just use epic rads.

For coolers, it's different though; their powerscore scales in terms speed rather than the actual decrease in cooling time they provide, so via backtracking their denominator-additive scaling, you get a more PS efficiency with a taymyr: It removes a third of your cooltime for 270 PS, which is ~12.4% per PS. A shiver with the perk active is 13% per PS, but without is just 10.7%, so if you don't expect to keep it active, you can trade energy efficiency for lower PS efficiency. This is why you might see someone in raids using a growl, gas gen, and four vectors with a seal and a taymyr, but not so much with a chill and a shiver. Particularly if the cooler is fused.

Calculator link and video on the subject (with its own calculator):

  Reveal hidden contents

Tweakable graph used in the prior images: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/6ynllsyluh

Video: 

 

 

Cool post I read none of it. Use firebugs or typhoons and you win. 

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You just had to quote the entire post for that? :DD

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On 8/30/2019 at 5:17 PM, EVAN__WILLAMS said:

Cool post I read none of it. Use firebugs or typhoons and you win. 

Omjessus he's right. Science, you fool. You damned fool!!! D:

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Cool post! So for Tsunamis, I should use 2x coolers and 2x radiators? (jk)

But this is something I've been struggling with a bit since making a pair of Hammerfalls and being.. underwhelmed by their legend. Which I know is my fault for not really understanding heat management. So they're belt fed! Yey! Much dakka! Then puttputtputtputt and.. no dakka. So a weapon that seems like it really needs to be cooled properly, else it's less effective than the epic shottie. So I've been working on making coolers & rads, and this guide helps.. I think. I had been planning on 2+2, but now thinking 1 cooler and 2 rads seems more optimal, and leaves a point of energy to invest in.. something. Or I can save weight/PS by using a gas gen instead of an Apollo.

My other favorite weapon is probably the Aspect, which are I guess a bit weird given they're optimised to run hot. So thinking coolers may help more with those, ie I normally tap fire to keep heat sweet, but faster cooldown after getting myself into trouble and burst firing could be handy.

(Oh, and my shotgun woes are also down to me doing it wrong, ie I tend to drive aggressively, which is probably a bad idea in a short-range build that usually doesn't have a cloak..)

 

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I like ramming people with tusk: your entire post/study doesn't apply to me.

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Great job XR57! :good:

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