ZERGOR

A more robust structure: welding strength

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Resistance is a nice idea, but part of me is stuck preferring the flat-rate health bonus:

  1. It scales very simply [with diminishing returns as far as percent of durability added].
  2. While large parts can receive the most health when fully-welded, small parts will benefit more from a flat-rate weld bonus, because they have more welding points for their size (greater surface area per volume).
    • Consider 2 Scavenger Half-walls. While identical in total size to 1 Container wall, together they will experience 8 additional weldpoints (the 4 weldpoints between them), at the cost of greater exposure to explosions, higher parts limit, and weaker individual parts / greater build granularity.

If weldpoints were to contribute to multiplicative resistance, or add a flat resistance, large parts would still be plainly superior to small ones (similar to their existing resistance to explosions, but now also effective against energy, melee, & bullets).

 

Either way, I love any idea that makes playing tetris [with armor pieces] less of a deathtrap when fighting against explosives.

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6 hours ago, Comrade_Tiki said:

Either way, I love any idea that makes playing tetris [with armor pieces] less of a deathtrap when fighting against explosives.

That and to make ACTUAL COHESIVE BUILDS more proeminent. All my cars (with the exception of my CW build) are compact and sacrifice effectiveness for aesthetics, which means that they usually get torn apart by vehicles that look like giant junkyards sculptures poorly welded together and barely holding up while moving.

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I think overall its a good idea.....but when i think about it.......that would get broken beyond any good.

People just love to exploit game mechanics and this weilding power mechanic would give enough room for massive exploits and cheesing around.

Its the same thought i had when people complained about reputationparts.....i knew that builds would get massive after the "nerf" and that the people that are complaining dont know what they are actually crying for.

Please dont understand me wrong ....i dont consider your idea as crying but the change would give us till now not seen problems which get exploited again......just look at radarabuse atm.

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1 hour ago, _Riddig_ said:

People just love to exploit game mechanics and this weilding power mechanic would give enough room for massive exploits and cheesing around.

The only way to exploit this that I can see are people building massive cube like cars to take the most from every piece's welding point.

If that is the case, at least there will be an alternative to spaced armor builds.

My only concern is how this will affect leviathans...

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11 hours ago, lucashc90 said:

My only concern is how this will affect leviathans...

Not so much. Right now one of the best strats against them is to have someone torch them while others use unguided missiles. Fire puddles destroy all structures parts extremely fast letting only movement parts weapons and frames on the build. Leviathans power stem from movment parts that have ludicrous HP (particularly Goliaths) and the frames behind them that are almost indestructible without ramming. Those won't benefit from the change that much.

For the "cube abuse" : That's pretty much what's intended. To have cars that feel compact. They would probably not look like cubes though because you usually want a low profile and as low width as possible (that is the main reason for sideway builds). So vehicles would probably be rectangular with more length than height and width... Which is fairly close to real vehicles. If you add that people would still want a wedge (sadly) you will end with a pretty normal profile.

And again the HP boost of a compact build should not be some ridiculous buff. Just making sure that instead of losing a huge chunk on a cannon hit you only lose a small chunk so that you don't feel penalized for having a compact build. You will still be torn apart if you sustain multiple cannons hits on the same spot.

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2 hours ago, ZERGOR said:

 the HP boost of a compact build should not be some ridiculous buff. Just making sure that instead of losing a huge chunk on a cannon hit you only lose a small chunk so that you don't feel penalized for having a compact build. You will still be torn apart if you sustain multiple cannons hits on the same spot.

I believe that's how this should be done. Atm there is no real alternative to spaced armor when we talk about effectiveness.

Wanna drive something that actually looks like a car? Good luck, because 80% of it will be blown off the first time you are hit by a stray cannon shell across the map.

Edited by lucashc90

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Hi Folks,

Suppose we make the Cab the central focus for connection, and weld durability an additional total that is added to the vehicle durability?

All frame / structure connected / welded to the cab has a +2% per weld bonus to durability.

Subsequent layers get reduced bonus the further away they are placed from the cab. eg: 2% weld bonus for cab contact, 1% for 1st layer, 0.5% for 2nd layer, 0.2% for 3rd, no weld bonus for 4+ layers.

Vehicle stats would show Armour durability, Weld bonus, Total durability

This would allow for the weld bonus to be small: ~ 0.1 point durability bonus per weld.

So, reducing effectiveness as the build gets bigger.

Neat, compact builds get lots of bonus weld durability, spaced armour will only get so much.

Additionally, cabs with fewer mount points may have a weld bonus multiplier. eg: Ghost cab weld bonus = .3 per weld, Carapace cab weld bonus = .16

However, it will mean giving more damage to weapons - lots of balancing.

Just a suggestion...

Stoopid_noob. 

Edited by Stoopid_noob
Decimal point error...cabs, formatting, etc.
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Suppose we make the Cab the central focus for connection, and weld durability an additional total that is added to the vehicle durability?

I don't really think there should be extra incensive to build near the cabin. Already you usually want to places things (particularly weapons) directly on it because it's the only part that can't be destoyed (until you lose that is). This would also reduce creativity, forcing the cabin to be in the middle of the build with long pieces connected to it so other pieces are only one connection away.

Also the more complicated the calculation the more complicated understanding the HP gain of your parts become. I don't like adding complexity if there isnt a clear purpose to it. 

Edited by ZERGOR

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16 hours ago, ZERGOR said:

For the "cube abuse" : That's pretty much what's intended. To have cars that feel compact. They would probably not look like cubes though because you usually want a low profile and as low width as possible (that is the main reason for sideway builds). So vehicles would probably be rectangular with more length than height and width... Which is fairly close to real vehicles. If you add that people would still want a wedge (sadly) you will end with a pretty normal profile.

See guys? :DD

 

If the "abuse" of this mechanic leads to cars looking like actual cars, I'm all for it baby!!

 

10 hours ago, ZERGOR said:

I don't really think there should be extra incensive to build near the cabin. Already you usually want to places things (particularly weapons) directly on it because it's the only part that can't be destoyed (until you lose that is). This would also reduce creativity, forcing the cabin to be in the middle of the build with long pieces connected to it so other pieces are only one connection away.

Also the more complicated the calculation the more complicated understanding the HP gain of your parts become. I don't like adding complexity if there isnt a clear purpose to it. 

It doesn't have to be near the cabin per se. It's all about maximizing weld point usage for parts in general. You tourself can decide how you wanna go about it.

 

Also I feel it's pretty intuitive: The more welded your parts are the more resistant to damage they become. That's as complicated as it gets for end user.

 

The purpose is pretty darn clear: Make "thick" armor competetive option against spaced armor. Currently it really isn't.

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20 hours ago, ZERGOR said:

Also the more complicated the calculation the more complicated understanding the HP gain of your parts become. I don't like adding complexity if there isnt a clear purpose to it. 

It doesn't need to be rocket science you know, they could just add a "+ amount HP" in bright red/green to the side of your health count while building (working like the reputation bonus count) just so you see how much is added by welding parts together. With time people will figure out what works and what doesn't based on that small counter and voilá!

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I think all structure parts should get a small bonus for each weld point. Explosive resistance 2% per weld point connected to cabin or framing. This would further improve on the framing mechanic and building properly instead of exploiting what has been a deeply flaw aspect of the games armor/explosion mechanics.

Edited by Tripp1986

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Yeah spaced armor is getting uglier and uglier. And each time It makes me hate the armor system in this game more and more.

bK1yyYe.jpg

 

Builds like mine should be just as viable as putting the same amount of armor in an ugly spaced config. Hell Mine should be better against small arms like shotguns and MG's while spaced is better against explosive.

 

Really think there should be a connection point based thing that reduces light arms damage from MG's and shotguns, so the more connection points used the more the damage is reduced. Making compact armor better against faster lighter builds while spaced is better against heavy. You have to think about which type of armoring you go for when in combat as well as which weapons you use.

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6 hours ago, Warbrand2 said:

Hell Mine should be better against small arms like shotguns and MG's while spaced is better against explosive.

It already is, spaced armor is weak to weapons like shotguns and MGs but strong against projectile weapons with explosive damage. It's the opposite for compact armor.

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3 hours ago, SIGMA920 said:

It already is, spaced armor is weak to weapons like shotguns and MGs but strong against projectile weapons with explosive damage. It's the opposite for compact armor.

In theory, in reality a shotgun takes out more of my armor then a cannon ever will.

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Bump. Using proper welding to make tough vehicules is the intuitive thing to do in XO and it should have an effect.

For example I remember when I started and knew nothing about the game, I kept welding my weapons with all the points available because it seemed obvious to me that a Chord using 4 welding points would last longer than a Chord using only 1 welding point.

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On 9/29/2019 at 4:49 PM, Warbrand2 said:

In theory, in reality a shotgun takes out more of my armor then a cannon ever will.

That's odd unless you're not facing anything above rare cannons.

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Bump. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this welding strength should give a bigger bonus against blast damage than against the rest. If the goal is to make the game more logical and better looking, that's the only thing. If it gives the same bonus against everything then it changes nothing to the fact that explosions wrecks normal armor, that explosives are the weapon meta, and that spaced armor is the armor meta. All it'd do is make MGs miserable against non-meta pretty builds, when they already have it bad against spaced armor meta builds.

Also, thinking about how it should work, I think neither a set amount of resists for 100% welded points, or a set amount for each welded point with no cap are the best ideas. Both will promote stacking huge panels over huge panels to get the most out of the bonus.
How about a set amount/welded point with a max cap? something simple, like +1% resist/ weld points, capped at 10%. Only the tiniest pieces don't have 10 weld points. If you go lower than 10 weld points, spaced armor will start to get most benefits too and it wouldn't help.

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10 hours ago, SIGMA920 said:

That's odd unless you're not facing anything above rare cannons.

fatman does 120 damage per hit + blast.

Shotguns do upto 120 damage per shot depending on the shotgun.

That is per weapon, you can have 4 shotguns or 2 fatman's

Edited by Warbrand2

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On 10/2/2019 at 4:57 AM, Warbrand2 said:

fatman does 120 damage per hit + blast.

Shotguns do upto 120 damage per shot depending on the shotgun.

That is per weapon, you can have 4 shotguns or 2 fatman's

Ok here we need to clarify a couple things:

The shotguns that do 120+ damage/shot are the reloading ones. They cost 4 energy each, wich means it's 2 fatman for 3 reloading shotguns. I honestly despise how reloading shotguns currently work, but I gotta admit they disappeared from the meta because of how weak they are rn. It's just that theywork in such an obnoxious way... I wish they dealt less damage but had decent range instead of one-shotting anything point-blank and being useless past 20 meters :'D

Edited by Clebardman
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This is way too confusing.

Spaced armor is actually pretty simple to figure out. And it's not to fight cannons, it's to fight all explosions/blasts. And they make up about half of the weapons in the game. From autocannons to rockets to missiles to grenades and even lances.

Spaced armor has a pretty natural balancing set of factors. Spaced armor is much bigger than non-spaced. Duh. So you're a much bigger target for the exact thing you're trying to defeat. It's also higher PS. Often MUCH higher PS. Those are pretty huge limitations and it's why you don't see a lot of spaced armor at low and mid PS. Because you simply can't afford it. The 15K builds with 15 radar dishes is a whole other animal and set of things that needs to be addressed separately.

But if you can simply nail stuff down then you weaken all explosions. If the concern is the appearance of vehicles, nerfing half the weapons in the game is a terrible way of doing that. Blasts CAN be powerful, but the way they work also makes them weak. Spaced armor takes advantage of the weird mechanics of blasts. I've done a bunch of videos that show that explosions detonate when they get NEAR a part. That's how spaced armor works. You are causing the blast to detonate further out and damage less vital pieces. If blasts were changed so that they worked like hitscan (except with a projectile...) and they didn't explode until they actively HIT a piece, it would make spaced armor very weak. HOWEVER, it would also make all explosions much more powerful. This is the natural trade-off and balance in the game. If a cannon didn't explode until it directly hit something with it's projectile pixel, you couldn't hide weapons. You could fire a mammoth shell perfectly and hit shotguns right on the nose even if they had bumpers and structure pieces on every side. Small weapons with low durability would suffer tremendously.

Spaced armor is goofy-looking, but you can do it without going overboard. ANY piece that sticks out acts as spaced armor to ALL explosions. It doesn't have to be a house of cards shape. A hatchet sticking out is spaced armor and it "protects" something like a 3 square diameter even though it doesn't look it. Spaced armor takes advantage of a weakness in explosions. But to use it, you have to nerf your own build--and that's a good balance. Looking goofy isn't a balance issue. But everything in thread changes the balance of how different weapons function pretty significantly. We've spent a long while trying to get to this point of balance and to suddenly change fundamentals would require everything to be balanced again.

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On 10/5/2019 at 8:39 PM, dukerustfield said:

We've spent a long while trying to get to this point of balance and to suddenly change fundamentals would require everything to be balanced again.

Well this point in the balance is a total fustercluck so what gives if a transition period is required to get into a better state?

The damage resistance should probably be universal, doesn't matter if it's an explosion or a bullet. Also, depending on the resistance threshold, it could actually have really low impact on the outcome. A spaced armor build would come out just the same as a compact build, but a compact build would look much better.

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@_Lemmy44_ The thing is, spaced armor is the meta because cannons are the meta. Spaced armor takes a lot of room and is inneficient in lots of way, but it's worth it because of how powerful explosions are. If you implement welding strength in a way that makes it as efficient as spaced armor against explosions, then people will just switch to layered armor because it'll be just as good as spaced against explosions and more compact. But if it's also better than spaced armor against MGs/shotguns/etc, then the side effect is that you nerf massively all those non-explosive weapons.

As I see it there are two interesting possibilities and a bad one. The two good ones are: make layered armor good against bullets (currently hitscans don't exactly deserve that nerf but it allows spaced and layered to coexist and offers the most building possibilities. Not my pick because I want layered armor out of the game, it's ugly af and dshouldn't exist.) or against explosions (to make spaced armor disappear without nerfing explosives or hitscans. It's the neutral choice that doesn't buffes, nerfes, takes or adds anything, just tries to put some logic and intuitivity in the game)
The bad one is make layered armor more resistant against evrything, as it has the unintended side effect of nerfing hitscans, wich are currently more in need of a buff than anything else.

Edited by Clebardman

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5 hours ago, Clebardman said:

But if it's also better than spaced armor against MGs/shotguns/etc, then the side effect is that you nerf massively all those non-explosive weapons.

As it's been implied already the overall balance would change so weapons would likely need tweaks anyway. You could buff all non-explosive weapons or nerf all eplosive weapons a bit.

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This

2 hours ago, Spedemix said:

As it's been implied already the overall balance would change so weapons would likely need tweaks anyway. You could buff all non-explosive weapons or nerf all eplosive weapons a bit.

or make the welding bonus not that massive in a way that it wouldn't overcompensate over the spaced armor. Kinda like a REAL choice: "hey, you wanna be massive and survive cannon shells? Use spaced armor! Wanna be small but more resillient and somewhat easy to miss? Use compact armor!"

My 4360hp tank has half the size of a spaced armor spider but a single double Tsu salvo, running over 3 porcs or 6 secs of continuous fire from quad Imps blow 1/3 of my car off and 1k of my health is gone just like that. If that is the case in a massive tank, imagine a small sand buggy.

Edited by lucashc90
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