ZERGOR

A more robust structure: welding strength

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On 10/7/2019 at 10:33 AM, Spedemix said:

As it's been implied already the overall balance would change so weapons would likely need tweaks anyway. You could buff all non-explosive weapons or nerf all eplosive weapons a bit.

Why would you tweak 100+ items when you can tweak only 1 tho? :'D That's similar to the "stop asking for nerfs on Typhoon, buff all the other weapons instead" logic tbh.

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The change would probably require a change on weapons as well as other structure parts but only health wise. The damages (and explosions) would not require tunning.

Health of everything on the other hand should be tuned down. There are two option:

A blanket % HP nerf of everything. But that risk nerfing very high HP parts like cannons (and buffing very low HP structure parts like the ones that literally have 5 HP).

A more fine tunned HP nerf where the nerf is equal to the average number of welding points used times the health they give. That may densely packed parts would have more HP than normal and parts that are almost alone would have a bit less HP than normal.

Not reducing health would risk making builds tankier in general which is not the goal. The goal is to have specifically dense vehicles not penalized compared to spaced armor.

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I like the concept because the current system doesn't make any sense and also has led to a great amount of really hideous vehicles in the game, prominently spiders padded with multiple layers of flimsy gratings all attached to a flimsy metal rod. If a tank shell actually hit such a vehicle it would take all of the flimsy armour off an entire side with one hit. But the weight of an actual tank armor part that covers the same amount of space doesn't make it viable because it will also only withstand a single tank shell.

So yeah, some kind of change that rewards more compact builds with tighter armor would be a welcome change. We already had the OP ballooning fixed, which was really necessary. I remember firing away at a guy one time who had a huge array of missile balloons, and I was shooting with dual executioners, single shot each time and carving away at his balloons LOL it was so frustrating.

So yeah, game needs something like this.

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5 hours ago, Clebardman said:

Why would you tweak 100+ items when you can tweak only 1 tho? :'D That's similar to the "stop asking for nerfs on Typhoon, buff all the other weapons instead" logic tbh.

What's the one weapon you tweak?

 

No such thing. This requires a bit wider balance tweak across multiple weapons anyway. With or without this armor change implemented.

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10 hours ago, Babylonsburning said:

Almost all fixed angle weapons would become the only weapins to use. Like defenders, spitfires. Dracos.

If no balance is done yeah. But as I said I think that parts should have their HP reduced based on how many welding points they have. That include weapons.

The worst offender would probably be goblins and their insane number of welding points + pass through but if their HP are reasonably lowered (and they gain less HP due to welding, being pass through like I proposed in the first post) they should stay balanced. 

I know that it's not an easy change because of that: The HP of many parts may have to be fine tuned because a blanket nerf would mean a buff to some weapons like the ones you said and a nerf to others (high hp weapons with only one welding face). 

Edited by ZERGOR

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First, it shouldn't be resistance per attached welding point, but resistance depending on how many of the total welding points are attached.

Second, weapons and modules would be excluded from this rule, and even if they were not, the fixed angle weapons would be actually worse off, since they have welding points on multiple sides and turreted weapons have welding points only at the bottom and are thus easier to attach using all their welding points.

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'm not such a fan of using the % of their weld points used after all. That means the most efficient way to armor will be to stack APC panels over APC panels... I'm not sure it's much better than spaced armor tbh.

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^^But it weights 350 kg per panel so not everybody will have the luxury of spamming it. The heavier armor still has the 1/3 dur/weight ratio. That isn't going anywhere.

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@Spedemix What I mean is that if the most efficient way to armor up is  to make literal boxes of structural with as many weld points used as possible, I'm not sure the game will be much prettier :p

Edited by Clebardman

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@Clebardman Well if you stack APC panels, you will have one side of it exposed and after the outside one gets destroyed, half of the welding points underneath will be instantly exposed, loosing much of it's damage resistance. On the other hand, using parts that have most of their welding points on one side or two neighbouring sides would become much more effective.

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@Clebardman as if the game is pretty already with all the wedges and spaced armor builds :lol:

@_Lemmy44_ that way many of the avia and sloped pieces will become more attractive, making car shaped cars more proeminent in this supposely car focused game.

Edited by lucashc90
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I really like the idea of more durable structure parts. Right now, there is little point in using "heavy" armor.

 

Maybe a Crossout version of From The Depths armor stacking calculations could be used?

 

https://fromthedepths.gamepedia.com/Armour_Layering

 

We dont have an Armor Class in the game but the principle behind it - that parts behind the outer armor - increase its durability - seems both sound and effective.

 

So if you have two APC panels on top of each other... the first one would actually tank 2 X 120 = 240 damage.

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3 hours ago, ARES_IV said:

I really like the idea of more durable structure parts. Right now, there is little point in using "heavy" armor.

 

Maybe a Crossout version of From The Depths armor stacking calculations could be used?

 

https://fromthedepths.gamepedia.com/Armour_Layering

 

We dont have an Armor Class in the game but the principle behind it - that parts behind the outer armor - increase its durability - seems both sound and effective.

 

So if you have two APC panels on top of each other... the first one would actually tank 2 X 120 = 240 damage.

 

That's a bit the goal of welding strength but done differently.

I looked a bit at their method and it seem that multiple layers in FTD mean that the outer armor recieve extra damage reduction from the armor below it (and a fraction of armor from the subsequent ones). 

The way it could be implemented in XO, the projectile would have to look how many layers it would hit after the target if it was piercing (before reaching the first empty space) and then reduce damage according to that. That's a different way to do it but it could work.  Interestingly this reduction is only for explosions and kinetic (so no melee or energy (lasers) that seem to also exist in the game).

It would have a major difference from welding strength in that it would not reward coherent structures but only multi layered structure. What I mean is that having a piece reinforced by other pieces around it but not directly behind would have 0 effect with that method. With welding strength it would still have extra HP dues to the pieces linked on its sides. 

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Thank you I had the same feelings about this topic and a similar method of correcting such things. So much so I recently have created a thread of my own regarding this topic. Would love to see a simple fix to this outrageous mess of building tactics implemented.

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This is not that difficult to implement and the biggest problem would be to balance it... but since devs are struggling to balance the ever increasing number of armor exploits there are, I believe it would be a more efficient way than having to redesign the game from the ground (because even with the explosion rework, all the hover nerfs, the typhoon nerf, decor balance AND collision models update we still have radar armor, spaced armor, wedges and many other things that came from the need to "be protected from having half of your car blown off over a stray cannon shot or a wasp/pyre salvo").

Edited by lucashc90
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1 hour ago, samuraicrosser said:

what do you think of this idea

the devs will have to do like the hovers,

each installed radar decreases the power of the cabin by 5%

which makes any vehicles slow or inconduisible beyond 1 radar

the radar does not consume energy point,

that's why I compare it to the hover,

I really think that the power drop of the cabin is the solution,

the energy of the radar come from where????

if n is the cabin as for the hover

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since devs officially would like the builds to resemble cars, many structure parts have been made with limited weld points and certain shapes to limit their use to certain parts of a car (for example fenders, bumpers etc to shape the outside of the build).

maybe give structure (not hp) a boost (or reduction) depending on how many of its possible weld points are used to connect it to the vehicle (decor pieces should not count).

generally something like 

- less than 20% weld points used: -33% durability

- 20-50%: normal durability

- 50-100%: +33% durability

going with a flat percentage for bonus depending on used weld points most likely wont work perfectly since there are parts with connection points all around, and parts with rather few connection points. those probably need to be looked at individually.

this will make large pieces hanging far out more vulnerable to damage, allowing the blast radius to reach more parts as they take less damage to destroy. other weapons will also become more effective against such parts.

compact builds with less unused weld points on the outside will be more durable against blast and other types of damage.

 

maybe some public tests can be held to see how it turns out in battle?

Edited by forc3dinduction
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I'm all for anything that limits "Spaced Armor" so that i don't have to play with/against a bunch of dish-racks stacked with platters.  It kinda ruins the game when everything in the air wouldn't fly, let alone tank multiple cannon rounds with canvas roofs stuck on space frame buggy floors.

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12 hours ago, forc3dinduction said:

going with a flat percentage for bonus depending on used weld points most likely wont work perfectly since there are parts with connection points all around, and parts with rather few connection points. those probably need to be looked at individually.

this will make large pieces hanging far out more vulnerable to damage, allowing the blast radius to reach more parts as they take less damage to destroy. other weapons will also become more effective against such parts.

Well not really, when you think about it.

 

You see, something will ALWAYS be the outmost layer of armor in your builds. In that case that armor will always have reduced durability bonus from this system, whether it has connection points on the outside or not. You're put put anything on the outermost layer because... well, then it wouldn't be outermost layer anymore right? :DD

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49 minutes ago, Spedemix said:

Well not really, when you think about it.

 

You see, something will ALWAYS be the outmost layer of armor in your builds. In that case that armor will always have reduced durability bonus from this system, whether it has connection points on the outside or not. You're put put anything on the outermost layer because... well, then it wouldn't be outermost layer anymore right? :DD

thats why i said a flat percentage wont work for some parts, mostly those large heavy parts from scavs and stepps.

stepps do have those nice angled pieces to form the outside of builds with. it would be nice to see them used as such, and not just as long connectors to hold a canvas roof as far away as possible

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wait... what do you mean with flat percentage?

 

I thought you meant "each weld point that is welded gives you y% boost" So if two points are welded it gives you 2x y%. If sixteen points are welded, then you get 16x y%.

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8 hours ago, forc3dinduction said:

it would be nice to see them used as such, and not just as long connectors to hold a canvas roof as far away as possible

What you're talking about does work, if you use larger pieces as spacers, and heavier plates as armor.

For example, 2 Gun Mounts, and a Van Door is a massive amount of Health, and both flavors.  Compared with a Buggy Floor, and a Canvas Roof, you can tank multiple hits before the Door breaks off, then before Both Gun Mounts get worn away.

However, this is also a lot heavier, and you have fewer Gun Mounts than Buggy Floors (Buggy Engine Covers, Buggy Trunks...)  The main problem is that Hovers, and Spiders are high enough off the ground, and have the stability that they can use more Space than Armor.  So, they spread it out in the snowflake pattern, that wheels, and tracks can't use.  That's how they take multiple shots from Cannons, and Scorpions:  Through multiple light layers.  Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of counters for that, other than exploiting the 2 sides (Top, and Bottom) that aren't covered so well.

That's the best way around the flat fractal builds:  They are protected on 3, or 4 sides, but they can't cover all 6.  So, if you can get Lances under them, (With Hatchets to lever yourself up on impact) or lob in Top Attacks (Catapult, Grenade Launcher, Howitzer, Missiles...) then you can hit them where they don't have spaced armor.

I like Pyres best for this, because they're Cheap, and target the Cabin.  So, you can scoot out long enough to get a lock, launch, then get back behind cover while they dance around, avoiding the missiles.  Which is a little hard to do, when the missiles have a target like this:

iss-1012807.jpg?r=1536059513723

From the Top.  Even if they do dodge them, or blow their Cloak breaking the lock, they're not shooting You, which throws them off their game.

Edited by psiberzerker

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2 hours ago, Spedemix said:

wait... what do you mean with flat percentage?

 

I thought you meant "each weld point that is welded gives you y% boost" So if two points are welded it gives you 2x y%. If sixteen points are welded, then you get 16x y%.

not quite how i meant it.

lets say you have a piece with 30 weld points, 100 structure and 100 hp

use less than 6 (20% of 30) weld points: part durability reduced by 33% (-> 67 dura), but it is still 100 hp. it is easier to destroy since it only has 67 dura, and the car loses the 100 hp it brought.

use 7-15 (20-50% of 30) weld points: 100 dura, part behaves normally

use more than 16 weld points: 33% dura boost (-> 133 dura), still only 100hp, but it is now more resistant to damage

 

the idea is to make compact builds stronger. builds that look like a transformer frozen mid-transformation should be more frail. everything is exposed, barely held together. like, throw a grenade on it and watch the explosion blast bend and mangle everything in its blast radius. 

Edited by forc3dinduction

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