Christof_Romuald

Raid Powerscore Scaling

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Greetings,

While it is known that higher power score in a raid increases difficulty and as I have yet to see any concrete numbers posted so I am posting this here.

[Edit 3] TLDR (What we know with hard data):

1. There are power score brackets that start at 5999 and lower, are separated by 1000 power score intervals, and cap at 11000.

2. Increasing power score increases AI health logarithmically (earlier jumps to AI health are smaller than later jumps)

3. Only the highest power score in a raid sets the difficulty of the AI.

[Edit 3] Recently it appears that the youtuber Seithoz (link at the bottom) identified the actual hit point increase for each of the power score brackets [Edit 2] though not the damage, accuracy, or "aggressiveness" of the AI as of yetFor this reason this post currently will not speak to these points, not because there is no increase to these things but because I have no hard data that measures the increase to these things.  Anecdotally, we all experience the AI being more effective against our builds at higher power score brackets, but I simply have no numbers to provide on exactly how much more effective the AI gets that have been tested, so I do not speak to it.  (My rule of thumb [meaning this is me guessing and I have absolutely nothing hard to base this on] is the change on each bracket is applied to both AI durability and AI damage.)

It is common knowledge these brackets come in 1000 point increments, and now we have the data for the differences (Seithoz's video linked at the bottom) in the health of the AI [Edit 3] Though once again, not the damage, accuracy, or "aggressiveness" of the AI.  Additionally, Seithoz proved that only the player with the highest power score sets the AI's difficulty, no change to power score beneath the highest player's power score makes any difference.

For those unfamiliar the '~' symbol means "about" or "approximately":

5999 - Base Hit points

6999 ~10% over base, 10% harder than previous bracket

7999 ~25% over base, 15% harder than previous bracket

8999 ~45% over base, 20% harder than previous bracket

9999 ~70% over base, 35% harder than previous bracket

10999 ~110% over base, 40% harder than previous bracket

11000+ ~170% over base, 60% harder than previous bracket

 

There are several things one can take away from this data, or at the least should be considered for raid specific builds:

1. The difference between 5999 and 6999 power score is the smallest in terms of absolute value as well as percentage.  [Edit 1] This is potentially the largest power score hurdle to exploit (though not easily) - Depending on the weapons you are using to stay at 5999, If you are able to add any additional weaponry that would increase your damage by more than 10% you (the player) actually come out ahead and kill enemies FASTER than a 5999 build against Base Hit points.  For example (using homogeneous weapons [all the same type]), If you were using 3 machine guns, if you could manage to get a 4th onto your vehicle you would get a 25% damage increase over a 10% hit point increase, meaning you actually kill the AI 15% FASTER than a 5999 build against Base Hit points.  Alternatively, if you are using a build with 4 Goblins and add an additional goblin, that would constitute a 20% increase, over that said 10% health boost giving a potential 10% faster TTK.  [Edit 3] This is, of course, easier said than done (due to the additional power score cost of generators, and defensive parts), but could be possible if not viable.

2. If you are going to have a raid build over 5999 you should consider your DPS as you go up brackets, compared to hard base hit points as well as differences from the previous bracket.  If you are 7999 and are going to 8999, make sure you increase your hard damage by 20% over your previous build, or you start adding a damage deficit.

3. Being a 5999 build you can be mostly effective up to having someone up to 7999 without things becoming too bad (just 25% more health to deal with), but once someone with 8k+ power score shows up you become dramatically less effective.

4. If you are at 11000, just keep going or consider dropping to 10999.  Enemies cease to scale past this point, so you may as well slag on all the armor you can at this point, or drop down a few points and cut your difficulty by a whopping SIXTY PERCENT.  Just to illustrate this difficulty difference, 10999 to 11000 is nearly the exact same jump as someone raiding in a 5999 and someone joining in a 9999 build.

5. [Edit 3] Increasing power score also (likely) increases your likelihood of being matched with players who have a higher power score.

 

The other take-away is that this data is of course meaningless for Porcupine / Kapcan builds.  They can ruin any raid regardless of health.

 

Data can be found here:

Spoiler

 

I want to thank Seithoz for the work that he put in testing power score brackets, and psiberzerker, bkgmjo, and everyone else for their feedback to increase the quality of this guide.

Edited by Christof_Romuald
Due to the nature of replies it indicates that I had not satisfactorily addressed the multiple other factors that are modified by increased power score. This iteration should hopefully address that. Added thank you's as well.
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20 minutes ago, Christof_Romuald said:

1. The difference between 5999 and 6999 power score is the smallest in terms of absolute value as well as percentage.  If you are using 3 guns to stay under 5999, adding one gun would increase your damage by 25%, while only increasing enemy durability by 10% meaning that you would actually kill enemies 15% FASTER.  This is one of the only leaps in power score where you (the player) would come out ahead and should be considered over a 3 gun 5999 build.

Not arguing, great post.  Just clarifying:  

When you say 3 gun-to-4 guns, this really depends on whether you use a generator to make up the extra 3, or 4 Energy to mount a 4th gun.  (Also, not counting weapons which are 2 energy, like Pyres, Goblins, and Buzz Saws.)  

A gas-gen is 705 all on it's own, and that's not counting the Structure you have to add to keep it from blowing up your frames/cabin.  There's also movement parts to worry about, at this Power Score range.  One of the reasons why I get away with Augers is I only need 2.  Armored tracks seem to be right around the Meta in Hard Raids right now, because it's only 710  PS for 2, they do Armor your frames, and sides all on their own, and they have the Tonnage to handle a Bastion (Also fairly Meta in Raids, because there's no Energy weapons)

If you're shooting for a specific Power Score, especially in the 6-7K range, multiple Epic wheels, especially Bigfoot add up fast.  So, you want to go for Firepower first, then Mobility to carry it.  I also highly recommend Aurora for that 4th gun, because it doesn't add much damage of it;'s own, but it increases the damage of your other guns.  There's lasers flying everywhere right now, as well as Fire effects, and with good reason.  

Edited by psiberzerker

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25 minutes ago, Christof_Romuald said:

 

1. The difference between 5999 and 6999 power score is the smallest in terms of absolute value as well as percentage.  If you are using 3 guns to stay under 5999, adding one gun would increase your damage by 25%, while only increasing enemy durability by 10% meaning that you would actually kill enemies 15% FASTER.  This is one of the only leaps in power score where you (the player) would come out ahead and should be considered over a 3 gun 5999 build.

 

A gun doesnt cost 1 energy so you cant say a 25% increase in damage when you add 1 energy and drop 2 radiators/coolers. Using gas gen and a rare is less than 1000ps but gas gen and an Epic is over. I have played with 4 fidgets at 5990~, so I cant imagine myself playing with rares at 6999, unless I try 5 vektors. You probably have a point.

 

Edit: Maybe wiki is out of date, I havent used gas gen in ages. Yeah, gas gen and rare is 1155.

Edited by Firedrizzle

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12 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Not arguing, great post.  Just clarifying:  

When you say 3 gun-to-4 guns, this really depends on whether you use a generator to make up the extra 3, or 4 Energy to mount a 4th gun.  (Also, not counting weapons which are 2 energy, like Pyres, Goblins, and Buzz Saws.)  

A gas-gen is 705 all on it's own, and that's not counting the Structure you have to add to keep it from blowing up your frames/cabin.  There's also movement parts to worry about, at this Power Score range.  One of the reasons why I get away with Augers is I only need 2.  Armored tracks seem to be right around the Meta in Hard Raids right now, because it's only 710  PS for 2, they do Armor your frames, and sides all on their own, and they have the Tonnage to handle a Bastion (Also fairly Meta in Raids, because there's no Energy weapons)

If you're shooting for a specific Power Score, especially in the 6-7K range, multiple Epic wheels, especially Bigfoot add up fast.  So, you want to go for Firepower first, then Mobility to carry it.  

 

8 minutes ago, Firedrizzle said:

A gun doesnt cost 1 energy so you cant say a 25% increase in damage when you add 1 energy and drop 2 radiators/coolers. Using gas gen and a rare is less than 1000ps but gas gen and an Epic is over. I have played with 4 fidgets at 5990~, so I cant imagine myself playing with rares at 6999, unless I try 5 vektors. You probably have a point.

 

Edit: Maybe wiki is out of date, I havent used gas gen in ages. Yeah, gas gen and rare is 1155.

 

Greetings psiberzerker and Firedrizzle,

I will update my first bullet point to clarify what it is that has been brought up by both of you, as it appears to not be clear - my apologies.  As an aside, if you search the Crossout exhibition for "6999 Raid MK II" (or something close to that, I'm at work so I don't recall the name of my raid car) it is possible to have 1 Aurora, 3 machine guns, a gas gen, a radiator, and a cooler.  I'm sure it can be improved, hence why I have different iterations (the MK).

Thank you both for your feedback.

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A great guide gets even greater!

Update:  Well, I stripped down to 6954, which means basically my guns (2 Promethes, and an Aurora) without the Gasgen, Shiver, Radar, and Engine.  (Golden Eagle for the Augers)  

Got destroyed due to lack of Armor, but my team-mates certainly didn't help.  It was an Amytal Test, to Destruction, on Steel Cradle, Wrath of Kahn, about as worst case scenario as I could get.  Despite being the slowest, all 3 of the other players spend so much time weenie whacking that they left me to take all of the objectives, including the Boss (Nidhoggs) myself.

Thanks for your advice, and your wonderful guide, but I'm going to have to work at it, looks like...

Update 2:  This time, I got maxed with 2 10Ks, and a 13.  Tied for MVP in points.

Spoiler

E468E30D302FA26D8554664DE99F38DC821A908F

 

Edited by psiberzerker

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1 hour ago, forc3dinduction said:

whats completely forgotten is how bot damage and aggressiveness scale.

Greetings [Edit (misspelled your name, sorry)]forc3dinduction,

I do cover that in my opening paragraph as this was not covered in Seithoz's video however you are correct; further data needs to be gathered on bot damage and accuracy as power score scales.

As a side note, in the youtube comments to that video, I do actually touch up upon that very concern, as Seithoz comes to the conclusion to always go for the highest possible power score (which I don't necessarily agree with as this is heavily dependent upon available equipment).

Thank you for the feedback - I update my post to provide emphasis to this point.

Edited by Christof_Romuald
Misspelled player's name.

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4 hours ago, psiberzerker said:

A great guide gets even greater!

Update:  Well, I stripped down to 6954, which means basically my guns (2 Promethes, and an Aurora) without the Gasgen, Shiver, Radar, and Engine.  (Golden Eagle for the Augers)  

Got destroyed due to lack of Armor, but my team-mates certainly didn't help.  It was an Amytal Test, to Destruction, on Steel Cradle, Wrath of Kahn, about as worst case scenario as I could get.  Despite being the slowest, all 3 of the other players spend so much time weenie whacking that they left me to take all of the objectives, including the Boss (Nidhoggs) myself.

Thanks for your advice, and your wonderful guide, but I'm going to have to work at it, looks like...

Update 2:  This time, I got maxed with 2 10Ks, and a 13.  Tied for MVP in points.

  Hide contents

E468E30D302FA26D8554664DE99F38DC821A908F

 

Greetings,

My 6999 build is named "Farm 6999 MK 2" and provided the following results (emphasis on the one guy who didn't make it through the whole raid...):

Spoiler

20191223164505_1.thumb.jpg.3123207bee8a920191223164315_1.thumb.jpg.5e34ee5a8ebfe

 

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18 minutes ago, Christof_Romuald said:

My 6999 build is named "Farm 6999 MK 2" and provided the following results (emphasis on the one guy who didn't make it through the whole raid...):

B4B877B561F146E644A5BDB92B7D16491CC7A003

This one?

Mine's Sub 7 PS Raids.

Edited by psiberzerker

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15 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

B4B877B561F146E644A5BDB92B7D16491CC7A003

This one?

Mine's Sub 7 PS Raids.

Yep, that's my Raid build currently - Notable weaknesses are that the rear is very vulnerable - though keeping the front to the enemy tends to work just fine, but if things go south they can go south in a hurry.  I intend to improve upon this iteration (as with any build of mine with a MK designation).

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10 minutes ago, Christof_Romuald said:

Yep, that's my Raid build currently - Notable weaknesses are that the rear is very vulnerable - though keeping the front to the enemy tends to work just fine, but if things go south they can go south in a hurry.  I intend to improve upon this iteration (as with any build of mine with a MK designation).

Yeah, I had to cut the last meter of armor off the back of mine, and slap a couple bumpers over it.

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This is a little bit flawed though. From my observations the "extra" PS of all players is summed up to increase the bot's power. So, 4x5250 would be a 1000 used for extra power for bots. I have been too lazy to collect detailed percentage data about it, yet. Also, bot's hitpoints aren't all that matters in a raid. They also have stronger weapons. So, 20% more damage with 15% bot HP increase doesn't necessarily equal improvement, especially for the close combat types in raids *shivers*. You can easily see this with the triple Fafnir players popping up every now and then. If they get lucky and matched with 5k ones, they can deal some damage before they die. When matched with 7,5s (usually their range), they get toasted pretty quickly by the bots. Finally, it should be noted that everything above minimum increases your chance to be matched with very high PS players, which will probably seriously backfire on the calculated PS/damage optimization.

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30 minutes ago, bkgmjo said:

This is a little bit flawed though. From my observations the "extra" PS of all players is summed up to increase the bot's power. So, 4x5250 would be a 1000 used for extra power for bots. I have been too lazy to collect detailed percentage data about it, yet. Also, bot's hitpoints aren't all that matters in a raid. They also have stronger weapons. So, 20% more damage with 15% bot HP increase doesn't necessarily equal improvement, especially for the close combat types in raids *shivers*. You can easily see this with the triple Fafnir players popping up every now and then. If they get lucky and matched with 5k ones, they can deal some damage before they die. When matched with 7,5s (usually their range), they get toasted pretty quickly by the bots. Finally, it should be noted that everything above minimum increases your chance to be matched with very high PS players, which will probably seriously backfire on the calculated PS/damage optimization.

Greetings bkgmjo,

I realize now that my post is incomplete and, as with all things, can be improved.

1. I am going to summarize the Seithoz video's findings, as it shouldn't be expected for anyone reading my initial post to watch the entire video.

2. I am going to further emphasize that this post does not address the increase to bot damage/accuracy/"aggressiveness".

3. I will address increased power score begetting increased power score allies.

 

To respond to you directly:

1. Power score calculations are entirely covered in Seithoz's video.  Only the HIGHEST power score counts toward Bot strength, and anything shy of breaking into a different 1k bracket changes nothing.  If you have or get any hard data that contradicts this in any way, please post it here and I will absolutely adjust my information accordingly citing your data as a source.

2. This is stated and emphasized in my opening paragraph that I have no data toward the increase in bot damage, aggressiveness, or accuracy.  This is NOT to say that there is no change (as personally, I completely observe a change), it is to say I have no numbers behind it.  I don't know if bot's have their firing cones get sharper, fire more often, have their damage increased by a flat percent, or any combination of those things, but anecdotally I do notice a change to my build's longevity in higher power score matches.

3. I do not address weapon type effectiveness (such as the Fafnir) in my post because it isn't up to me to tell other players what to build, as everyone who plays this game has an entirely different set of resources available to them.  This guide is being provided in such a way that any player should be able to look at what they have, and using critical thinking about their own effectiveness choose the power score that best suits them, knowing the most about entering the situation as possible.  More information means better decisions.

4. I admit I hadn't thought about increasing power score also increasing the likelihood of you ending up in higher power score matches.  Though, anecdotally I would like to mention that the only reason I even made this post was I met Seithoz in a raid while he was using a 12000+ power score vehicle while I was in my old 5999 raid build and we had a conversation where he directed me to his video.  While we did win the raid (and I didn't die) I would have been able to do more damage if I were in a 6999 build.

 

Thank you for your feedback, bkgmjo.  Looks like I have some work to do!

Edited by Christof_Romuald
I misspelled the word cite... ugh. Also, anecdote.
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Thanks for doing it. Wish Gaijin would just share it in the first place and make it visible easily, instead of pushing in-depth knowledge about the game to people willing to reverse engineer somewhat or have the right friends, so they can run over casual players and newbies who don't know what's happening. But meh, design is design.

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17 hours ago, Christof_Romuald said:

Greetings,

My 6999 build is named "Farm 6999 MK 2" and provided the following results (emphasis on the one guy who didn't make it through the whole raid...):

  Hide contents

 

 

16 hours ago, Christof_Romuald said:

Yep, that's my Raid build currently - Notable weaknesses are that the rear is very vulnerable - though keeping the front to the enemy tends to work just fine, but if things go south they can go south in a hurry.  I intend to improve upon this iteration (as with any build of mine with a MK designation).

 

If you want to improve them further, drop the large plows.(both kinds, smaller Nomad and the larger Scavenger ones) Their durability to PS ratio is weaker than steppenwolves armor. Practically any other bumbers have better or equal ratio that steppenwolves armor. And if you aren't using the damage passthrough ability of the Dawn bumber, it's not effective either.

 

As for "aggressiveness" and other properties, the raid difficulty changes percents about how much damage the raiders do compared to nominal damage. These percents have been mentioned in any patch notes that have changed them. If I recall correctly hard raids are 100% damage. It's been a while since they have last changed. I don't think there's any other things, like the AI behavior and shooting is all the same accross difficulty. Only things are changed are damage output based on raid difficulty and type of weapon a particular bot has, and their health based on player PS scaling.

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7 minutes ago, PurdooSix said:

If you want to improve them further, drop the large plows.(both kinds, smaller Nomad and the larger Scavenger ones) Their durability to PS ratio is weaker than steppenwolves armor.

1: I don't have any Steppinwolf Armor, and B:  Those plows are used for Impact.  You can't see it in the photo, but the Train plow is attached to the Small Buggy Floors I have the forward guns mounted on.  (That's your pass-through, and it doesn't transfer ramming energy to the frames, nor the cabin.)  Mostly to intercept Melee mobs in raids, so they don't run right up to the defensive target, and deal a lot of damage before they're killed.  The Augers, too.  One of my Roles in raids is to counter the melee units, and also things like Turrets, which i can just run over.  

The plows aren't defensive, they're offensive.  The main thing is they're Melee resistant, so that I can ram straight into Borers without taking any damage.  They can't wedge me, and none of their weapons are mounted high enough to shew on anything but bumpers, and Meat Grinders.  Also, the Small plows keep me from tipping forward when I slam on the brakes.  You also can't see the Hatchets/Blade Wings I have mounted underneath.

Edited by psiberzerker

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47 minutes ago, PurdooSix said:

If you want to improve them further, drop the large plows.(both kinds, smaller Nomad and the larger Scavenger ones) Their durability to PS ratio is weaker than steppenwolves armor. Practically any other bumbers have better or equal ratio that steppenwolves armor. And if you aren't using the damage passthrough ability of the Dawn bumber, it's not effective either.

 

As for "aggressiveness" and other properties, the raid difficulty changes percents about how much damage the raiders do compared to nominal damage. These percents have been mentioned in any patch notes that have changed them. If I recall correctly hard raids are 100% damage. It's been a while since they have last changed. I don't think there's any other things, like the AI behavior and shooting is all the same accross difficulty. Only things are changed are damage output based on raid difficulty and type of weapon a particular bot has, and their health based on player PS scaling.

Greetings PurdooSix,

I will take this into account for my next iteration of Raid build.  Thank you.

As for AI damage and raid difficulty, it is known that the difficulty of the raid gives the AI its base damage (something like 50% for easy, 75% for normal, and 100% for hard).  Currently nobody has any hard proof of AI increased effectiveness for damage at higher power score other than 'feeling' their builds be torn apart at a faster rate.  Because this isn't quantifiable and may not be being altered (as you intimate) it isn't covered in this guide (as noted above).

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18 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

1: I don't have any Steppinwolf Armor, and B:  Those plows are used for Impact.  You can't see it in the photo, but the Train plow is attached to the Small Buggy Floors I have the forward guns mounted on.  (That's your pass-through, and it doesn't transfer ramming energy to the frames, nor the cabin.)  Mostly to intercept Melee mobs in raids, so they don't run right up to the defensive target, and deal a lot of damage before they're killed.  The Augers, too.  One of my Roles in raids is to counter the melee units, and also things like Turrets, which i can just run over.  

The plows aren't defensive, they're offensive.  The main thing is they're Melee resistant, so that I can ram straight into Borers without taking any damage.  They can't wedge me, and none of their weapons are mounted high enough to shew on anything but bumpers, and Meat Grinders.  Also, the Small plows keep me from tipping forward when I slam on the brakes.  You also can't see the Hatchets/Blade Wings I have mounted underneath.

Steppenwolves armor is just a standard to compare againts. Anything inferior, should not be used at all.

Those blows are still inferior to scavanger armor too. And like I said, all other bumbers are better.

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Also, my Power Score is low enough.  6949, to get in the ideal bracket for Raids.  After that, lowering my Power Score at the expense of Armor is nerfing yourself.  Instead, I concentrated on getting up to my Mass Limit without affecting my speed, or balance (So I'm easily flipped.)  Plows, hatchets, and Bumpers have a high Durability for their Weight.  

Again, I'm not going to remove durability, especially from my front end, just to needlessly lower my Power Score.  That weight up front also helps keep me on the ground, instead of getting wedged, and flipping over.  Which is also bad.  Power Score isn't everything.  Yes, I could actually fit another 50 PS on there, but not without going overweight, and sacrificing speed for it.

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Raid difficult is non always same every week, some time they go more hard or more easy than usually they are, choose a right PS is like russian rulets,

at exemple Hard electronic ones latlely i always go to defeat (before last update i always was able to complete the weekly challege) right now they became so hard i did stop to play it.

In normal ones i use 12000+ PS and 90% of time i win when i use less PS ones much depend other players too.

The base problem is that you never know your teammate, so play easy raid with low PS under 6K is my best choose, Normal ones that usually i use 7/8K right now for be sure to win i need 12K (Reatcher-hover) hopeing almost same other teammate players...but if not so i have anyway good percent of chance to win

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