Jiffy_boi

A simple suggestion to balance hovers

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9 minutes ago, tenshiijin said:

I disagree.  Hovers are fairly balanced now. 

How so?

edit: allow me to clarify. Why are there still so many in PvP?

Edited by Jiffy_boi

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I think they just need to be Legendary, and high enough Power Score to separate them from the cars.  There's no way to balance Flight, Levitation, and similar advantages, and they can't honestly take them away without losing too many players.

Also, raise the Power Drain, significantly.  

Edited by psiberzerker
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Why the xxxx does so many people think that hovers were meant to be slow?   I don't see literally one thing on them that leads to thinking that, it's like saying machine guns should have a slow fire rate

33 minutes ago, Jiffy_boi said:

reduces the usefulness of weapons like ACs, MGs, and other various DPS weapons. The hover vehicle is simply not in their view long enough for real damage.

Nope, in fact, machine guns, AC's and other various DPS weapons are the ones that work best against them 

 

The main problem with hovers is how slow everything else is, and how the complaining idiots thought they being tanky was a good idea for whatever reason, wheels should have faster acceleration, bigrams should be able to strafe in wheel mode, and meatgrinders need better handling overall, because they are kinda fast

The tracks and mech legs are obviously meant for slower, tankier builds

Edited by xCrossFaith
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41 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

I think they just need to be Legendary, and high enough Power Score to separate them from the cars.  There's no way to balance Flight, Levitation, and similar advantages, and they can't honestly take them away without losing too many players.

Also, raise the Power Drain, significantly.  

This.
Since it is impossible to balance hovers to not have so many advantages compared to wheels, tracks and legs, and that is due to them having different physics than other movement parts, then the only solution would be to make them into an 'end game' part. Whatever end game would mean since we don't have such a thing. Just make them legendary, high PS.

I personally would be happy with this just so they get out of lower PS.

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Buffing and nerfing PS can't be simple solution.
Of course, no more low PS hovers and no more seal clubbing will be in PVP but what about Clan War?

In Clan War, nobody cares Power Score. Players only care Performance such as durability, agility, tonnage, etc.
This is why so many PC gamers use Hovers, and nobody uses Tracks in the CW.

 

In same way, PS reduction can't be actual buff too. PS reduction of Tracks can't make them useful in CW.
It will just increase the number of Seal clubbing Goliath vehicles in low ps match.

Edited by VisceraCleaner
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Hovers have a lot of advantages, just to list some:

- reduced recoil
- (nearly) impossible to flip
- maneuvering in all directions without looking, without any risk of ending up on the side or top
- access to areas others cannot reach
- immunity to ground based melee weapons
- very slim profile possible, which would make any other build highly unstable (same with 3-legged spiders) and allows for very high full frontal armor
- elevated firing position is...
  - allowing a lot more long range sniping than any other build
  - allowing to fire at others from above, circumventing weapon armor
  - allowing firing from behind above own team members
- higher accuracy. Yes, really. With the possibility to strafe there is no need to rotate the vehicle, preventing the crosshair from going to max.
- ability to aim without turning weapons is
  - allowing faster aim and reaction fire
  - allowing aim with mouse AND keyboard
  - making unidirectional weapons 360 ones and 360 weapons turn way faster by rotating the hover

Plus the obvious advantages. This would all be okay, make hovers a different, but fair, thing in the game, IF it came at a tradeoff like a massive drop in accuracy, reduced cabin energy, extreme sensitivity to recoil, stuff like that. The way it is right now is just full cheat mode without any cost. Only adjusting hovers will not fix the unbalanced issue with movement parts, though. People will just jump to the next meta of spider legs with almost the same advantages, just slightly weaker, plus massive free armor. So either give both of them a cost to use or just have people switch back and forth between them.

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Yes
Reduce the mobility of a mobility based movement part

Great idea 10/10 lmao

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2 hours ago, Jiffy_boi said:

Why are there still so many in PvP?

What powerscore are we talking about?

I understand that low-ps hovers can still be a problem, but personally, since last nerf i'm already definitely not playing my big scorp hover anymore.

I also agree with xCrossFaith, some other stuff could use serious buffs and fixes: meatgrinders behave terrible. Legs, i don't understand how they struggle walking up a hill (speedo shows 50kmh still but truth is they get super slow) which feels wrong for something that looks that powerful.

 

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1 hour ago, fftunes4real said:

I also agree with xCrossFaith, some other stuff could use serious buffs and fixes: meatgrinders behave terrible. Legs, i don't understand how they struggle walking up a hill (speedo shows 50kmh still but truth is they get super slow) which feels wrong for something that looks that powerful.

It seems physics of this game is resulted in these problems. In fact, every vehicle behaves kinda weird and hovers just behave less weirdly.
(Just less. Their momentum is too big, even though they are light and moving slowly. And extra problems...)

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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I honestly think if you take away the non-flip characteristic, it is a level field. They should be nimble with low armor. It is their ability to lack responsibility while flying that gives them great advantage. Whether slowly drifting off a cliff or flying full speed backwards while fighting, they dont have to pay attention to terrain. Changing this one characteristic would have a big impact in many matches

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Mechanically driven vehicles have a logarithmic acceleration curve because they have transmissions and high gear ratios mean you sacrifice torque for speed. The higher the gearing, the less torque the drivetrain supplies. That is why Electric cars have such crazy acceleration. Hovers should not have a mechanical log acceleration curve; they should remain distinct from the other movement parts. Their main problem is that they are not even scifi, they are just a technophile's outlandish made up fantasy. Their function does not even line up with how they work visually as proven by their ability to automatically flip themselves over in the opposite direction of their nozzles.

Everything about the game's movement system is fubar. The tonnage system, the mass limit system, engine power, engine speed, part speed caps, power drain. Its all bogus and arbitrary. Suspension doesn't work properly on anything but hovers. Movement parts don't apply traction either when they are on top of a vehicle that is not standing still either, which is why you magically lose all your traction when you are t-boned or wedged. You can drive right off a wedge though when that wedge isn't moving. 

If the devs overhauled the entire movement system and physics, a majority of issues with hovers, wedges and handling with ground movement parts on bad terrain would go away.

When I said a Harpy Accelerates legs faster than a Humpback, I wasn't joking or being ridiculous. Even though legs are capped at 40 km/h which is slower than both Cabs, the Harpy accelerates a bare 4 leg chassis twice as fast as a Humpback will to that 40km/h speed limit despite having 40% as much power. The movement mechanics are outdated **** and they need to be fixed. 

Traction, it doesn't work at all when you are on top of another moving vehicle. This is why you are magically unable to drive off of a wedge until it stops moving. I know this for a fact because I did a tank turret fusion where I turned my vehicle on top of my buddy's build like a turret using a small track. If he was moving at all, I could not turn my vehicle/turret.

Suspension. Well actually we don't have any. Only hovers do. Your vehicle touches the ground and drives through an invisible contact patch that always runs flat to the terrain, and that contact patch is the only suspension it has. Individual wheels won't make a difference in offroad handling because they do not actually carry or drive the weight of your vehicle, they are just mapped to match the terrain while being animated. Hovers get away with this because they do not have a contact patch that is mapped to the terrain. They can turn midair while skinnered on a cliff. They have 2 meters of space between them and the ground, and they have unlimited vertical suspension travel.

Then hovers have the most xxxx movement mechanics in the game. You can reliably flip a hover in only one way: Fire the cannons on a hover while reversing off a cliff so the recoil puts you on your roof. Watch the hovers that are visually pushing you into the ground summon Skula to automatically flip the hover as intended. They also don't have an acceleration slope that mimics their visual movement. Hovers change direction by tilting their engines to vector thrust, yet they have the same acceleration no matter how angled or plumb the hovers are. Lets see a wheel build drive faster the slower its wheels are turning, or steer more the less turned the wheels are.

All in all hovers are quite literally the dev's pet movement part, they have every strength and they are not limited by any **** poor mechanics and physics that afflict other movement parts. They aren't properly represented visually compared to how they move. Their coded function is a completely ideal fantasy compared with the mechanics of everything else. And that is a fact regardless of what their in game stats are.

 

 

 

 

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We have your idea. Theyre called icarus IVs. Yet, youve probably never seen them, because at the mere 3% or whatever higher power drain, they are useless.

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2 hours ago, AFluffyBadger said:

Everything about the game's movement system is fubar. The tonnage system, the mass limit system, engine power, engine speed, part speed caps, power drain. Its all bogus and arbitrary. Suspension doesn't work properly on anything but hovers.

Although I see it similarly like you, the situation is not so bad. Only the hover thrusters and vehicle-vehicle movement parts interaction needs huge improvement. They seems like they do not stick with real physics enough now.

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6 hours ago, bkgmjo said:

-reduced recoil --  Try miniguns on hovers, I honestly didn't know they had recoil until I tried them a couple years ago
- (nearly) impossible to flip
- maneuvering in all directions without looking, without any risk of ending up on the side or top
- access to areas others cannot reach 
- immunity to ground based melee weapons -- Sure... That's why the direct counters to hovers are the dogs... 
- very slim profile possible, which would make any other build highly unstable (same with 3-legged spiders) and allows for very high full frontal armor
- elevated firing position is... 
  - allowing a lot more long range sniping than any other build   
  - allowing to fire at others from above, circumventing weapon armor 
  - allowing firing from behind above own team members
- higher accuracy. Yes, really. With the possibility to strafe there is no need to rotate the vehicle, preventing the crosshair from going to max.
- ability to aim without turning weapons is
  - allowing faster aim and reaction fire
  - allowing aim with mouse AND keyboard
  - making unidirectional weapons 360 ones and 360 weapons turn way faster by rotating the hover

Fixed a couple points, also, there is literally nothing in this list a well built spider can't do :lol:

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44 minutes ago, xCrossFaith said:

Fixed a couple points, also, there is literally nothing in this list a well built spider can't do :lol:

yes, as I mentioned directly below of what you commented

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Btw, we have 2 types of hovers. Balance one for mid/low PS and one for high PS, make the second one craftable as legendary or something to prevent use in lower PS.

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I still think we should have Patrol Air Cushion Vehicle (PACV) or  Air Cushion Vehicle (ACV) type of hover.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Air_Cushion_Vehicle

The hover we have now is more like A vertical take-off and landing (VTOL).  

81889_1000x1000.jpg

Against those, we should have weapons that are aim to combat them.

As for now, they are not too bad of balance for me at 5-6K PS build.  I can deal with them 1 VS 1, win or lose.  But using it as a an air flowing unit which players have no ability to control the flight high is somewhat not what they intended to be. 

 

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8 hours ago, Battlejack said:

This.
Since it is impossible to balance hovers to not have so many advantages compared to wheels, tracks and legs, and that is due to them having different physics than other movement parts, then the only solution would be to make them into an 'end game' part. Whatever end game would mean since we don't have such a thing. Just make them legendary, high PS.

I personally would be happy with this just so they get out of lower PS.

This comes with its own set of problems. Then the endgame will truly look like this:

Spoiler

9FBbu3s.jpg

^^Well, I mean it already looks like this. Turning the hovers into legendary certainly won't help that.

 

It kinda goes against the whole idea of the game that people can build various types of builds and bring 'em to battle. Just like the game doesn't have only specific unique weapon types on the Relic tier anymore.

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Couple of things I'd like to suggest are the real issues with hovers:

1. Sideways builds, Solution: Reduce Strafing speed to 40-50KM\h

2. Destroying Hovers, Solution: Hitscan weapons like MGs and shotguns are perfect against hovers (I play a hover countering hover using 4 Sinuses at 7.4k and it is fantastic for this) however they are rarely used because they arent strong enough. Buff MGs! The main thing that stops MGs being used are the low HP, they should have around 40% more HP so to be more fragile than autocannons of the same tier but not too OP and have a minor decrease in damage if they are too strong

3. Acceleration Curve, Solution: Reduce the linear curve of hovers to maybe something more agressive than a standard wheel build but not a straight edge

4. Stability, Solution: Introduce the "wobble" that was on the test server a few months ago when hovers being mounted on all sides was considered

I think all of these or a combination of at least 2 of these things would pull hover in line enough with other movement parts as to not lose their niche but also not allow them to become the total dominant staple seen at most powerscore

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7 hours ago, AFluffyBadger said:

When I said a Harpy Accelerates legs faster than a Humpback, I wasn't joking or being ridiculous. Even though legs are capped at 40 km/h which is slower than both Cabs, the Harpy accelerates a bare 4 leg chassis twice as fast as a Humpback will to that 40km/h speed limit despite having 40% as much power.

Okay, but 1:  A bare Harpy is a death trap.  2: It's Power/Weight Ratio.  Humpback has that much Power, because it needs it to hump all that extra Mass (+The mass of the Armor you can brick on)

So, more technically speaking, a Harpy CAN out-accelerate a Humpback, but not in a Practical build.

Edited by psiberzerker
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12 hours ago, psiberzerker said:

I think they just need to be Legendary, and high enough Power Score to separate them from the cars.  There's no way to balance Flight, Levitation, and similar advantages, and they can't honestly take them away without losing too many players.

Also, raise the Power Drain, significantly.  

But if they become the endgame part, what will happen to CW? Power score isn’t a concern there, and hovers might become the only viable movement part. So while PvP got much better, CW would be left in the dust.

 

7 hours ago, Lebensklinge said:

Hello

 

 

Buff hovers 

Hello

 

 

stop trying to troll

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