psiberzerker

A Good Sidearm (Design Philosophy)

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This is mostly design philosophy, based on a specific kind of build.  

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The important thing is 2 Heavy Weapons likeat. Fatman, Typhoon, Tsunami, or whatever=12 Energy.  (I'm going for 2 Incinerators, same math.)  With a Generator, you can add an Engine (Colossus) Radar/Detector, maybe a Kapkan, but there's a lot of stuff 2 powerful long reload weapons with limited Ammo just can't do.  

I chose this example as about Average, regardless of Movement (It could be Wheels, Tracks, or even Meat Grinders under there)  Guns that are very very good at crippling, or killing other players.  Other players that just might have a Kapkan, Cloak, Porcupines, Drones, or various other things for you to shoot, which are overkill for one of your 30, or so shots.

Notice the bare turret ring on top?  Another option is a low Energy Cost turreted weapon, with enough gun depression, and field of fire to shoot off that Kapkan.  Basically, a Sub-machinegun, a Reaper, would be great, but but that's another 6 Energy you don't have to spend, even with Apollo.  So, here's my picks (Assuming you can make do with a Hot Red, Keen, or Listener...)

Arbiter (+1 Seal)  

Now, you're barely going to get 7 seconds of Continuous fire, but again.  This isn't your main gun, I'm not OPtimising for that, I just need to shoot those Kapkans.  It's not too heavy, but in return, it's not that tough, either.  The hit-box isn't huge, it doesn't have enough recoil to throw off it's own shots (Mounted high enough to shoot mines anywhere around you)  I'm starting in the middle, like I did with Fatman.  It's not the best, it's not the worst, and if it gets shot off...

Okay, I've gotten mine shot off, with 1 shot, from 3 Executioners.  You know what?  That was Overkill.  That was 3 rounds of 88mm I didn't take to my Cabin Health.  Equalizer is even lighter, even squishier, and an even smaller target, but it basically doesn't kill that Kapkan as fast.  I don't want to waste too much time on the little things.  I want to shoot it, then go right back to aiming my Main guns.  (Or Catapults, actually)  So, for this purpose, Arbiter>Equalizer, if you're not watching your Power Score.

Helios

Again, Prometheus, Synthesis...  It's not a Machinegun, but it doesn't have to be, Trigger is honestly better for shooting mines, and getting shot by the enemy, but it doesn't de-cloak as well, and downright sucks for shooting down missiles.  I'm looking for just 1 thing, I can bolt on, and deal with ALL of the little things.  Missiles, Kapkans, Porcupines, decloaking pixelated blobs so I have something specific to aim at, and not waste valuable ammo when I don't have to deal all that much damage to get the job done.  (Not to mention wait for the reload when i just blew a cannon shell on somebody's cloaked train plow)  

Energy Weapons don't require anything.  No special engine, cabin, cooler, or Radiator.  Now they have a Booster, and that's great.  you can build a 3x Helios hover to melt all the things, but this isn't that build.  Out of all the options, I think Helios is Best in Slot for this class.  (Prometheus is pretty good if you care about your Power Score, so i'll give it the Equalizer Award.)

Spark

If you can afford it.

Punisher

It's a Relic.  So, I haven't battle tested it in combat yet.  It looks like it could work, it's got a massive hitbox, so works as a Decoy Target (Again, I'd rather you shoot off my Pistol than thousands of Durability in Cabin Health) I'd love to hear your views, especially if you've mained them in Clan Wars.  I haven't.  I haven't even owned one, yet...

Storm

This is Budget friendly, and it has the advantage that you can peg people from across the map with it.  It's a tap on the shoulder, "Hey!" but that's actually pretty useful, when you just want to distract them, or make them get their head down.  Squishy/Tiny, so they have to actually aim for it.  So, they're not aiming for something more vital.  Again, if you're trying to keep your Power Score down, Rapier works okay, but it's not great.

Emily, Adapter, Corvo, and Summator might work.  Especially if you're on a Budget, I'm going to say Summator, because of it's Dual-fire modes.  Emily is my bottom pick, because if that kapkan is right next to you, you can damage your own tire shooting it, but 6 shots should do the job.  It's only 4 Energy, and it doesn't require anything like a Seal.  6 shots is cutting it a little close if you're trying to shoot down Hurricanes (Remember, it's this instead of Chameleon, Aegis, or Barrier IX, which is a more hard counter to Missiles in general.)

A Meat Grinder

This doesn't cost any energy, but it's not Free.  Instead, the costs come out of your Performance, and there's also the size/weight of the thing.  However, in addition to popping Kapkans like a cat toy you found in the dark, it also fends off Harvesters, Shotgun Wedges...  I wouldn't recommend it other than for Steppe Spider, and Spooder hybrids, because there's basically no loss of Performance there.  The Power Drain doesn't really affect ML-200s, but you can't shoot down missiles with it.  A well designed Steppe Spider can tank a lot of Missiles, and with the Energy you saved, you can carry Chameleon, AND an Aegis, or Barrier IX.  

Also, there's really no reason to carry a little machinegun if you're rocking Reapers, or Cyclones.  

Skinner  

1 hour ago, LycanHammer said:

This sidearm doesn't do much for you if you are in a light fast build but you put in on a heavy build in the right way it becomes a very versatile tool.  Skinner could be used defensively to yank a dog build off of an ally, flip and ally from a distance, or you can connect the skinner to an ally that has been crippled, but still has weapons to help them stay in the fight. You can also attach the skinner to part of the terrain if you are getting wedged in order to give you a chance to escape. 

The skinner could also be used offensively, shake their build back and forth to prevent them from getting a clean shot, and flip heavy builds such as reaper humpbacks to make them an easy target to pick off.

It's also 2 energy, so another up-shot is that you can have 2x6 Energy Weapons, a good Engine, and Radar/Detector or Cloak with it.  Doesn't deal any damage, directly, but the Crowd Control, and utility of tethering a Hover-kite could be useful.  I'm going to have to buy one to get more direct experience with it.

Edited by psiberzerker

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That thing looks very nice :012j:

Nice to see Storm and Emily mentioned as something useful.

Edited by Siberian_Jay3x6

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27 minutes ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

That thing looks very nice :012j:

IK, R?  Not my build, but it gave me ideas...

I'm trying really, really hard not to sell everything, buy some tracks, and Fat Boys.    

27 minutes ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Nice to see Storm and Emily mentioned as something useful.

They're niche weapons, but part of that niche (I'd say Corvo>Emily, because you have to shoot close to your own wheels) is shooting Mines, or Missiles.  Storm in particular is really good for shooting Missiles, and even with the Harpy Perk, the blast on it isn't really enough to blow out your own tyres.

Edited by psiberzerker
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Just have a teammate with mgs shoot the kapkans

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1 minute ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Just have a teammate with mgs shoot the kapkans

Ideally, you have decent Team Mates that GAFF about you.  I don't depend on that.

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1 hour ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Just have a teammate with mgs shoot the kapkans

That is very unreliable.

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Get a skinner and steal somebody's drone, should be pretty easy to do.

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1 minute ago, AFluffyBadger said:

Get a skinner and steal somebody's drone, should be pretty easy to do.

I haven't tried that, but if you truly think that Skinner qualifies as a good Sidearm (It's only 2 Energy) I'll put it on the list.

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I've used it in Clan Wars on a Harpy Pulsar hover since 60% of teams are full melee. I just hang myself somewhere and ironically kill them all. Fun to use as a brake on hovers too.

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3 minutes ago, AFluffyBadger said:

Fun to use as a brake on hovers too.

IKDY more people don't use them to counter Hovers, TBPH.  I saw this one guy running a banana (AKA Sausage) build, and taking a Sideways Hover for a ride.  It looked hella fun!  I might have to get me one of those!

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I think the best sidearm is hands down the skinner. Before you laugh hear me out. This sidearm doesn't do much for you if you are in a light fast build bbut you put in on a heavy build in the right way it becomes a very versatile tool. I am one of the first people to combine a skinner with nidhoggs (if not the first on PS4) and people have copied and made their own version if this set up since.

The biggest difference between theirs and mine is I mount the skinner behind my build so that my build's momentum is used to filp enemy builds or at the very least mess up their aim. The builds that have the skinner in the front, while easier to use, I feel are less effective because they are mainly used to keep an enemy's build wedged.

In both cases the skinner could be used defensively to yank a dog build off of an ally, flip and ally from a distance, or you can connect the skinner to an ally that has been potatoed (what my clan calls a ride that has its movement parts stripped) but still has weapons to help them stay in the fight. You can also attach the skinner to part of the terrain if you are getting wedged in order to give you a chance to escape. 

The skinner could also be used offensively. Many times in clanwars I have caught a hover that has been trying to sneak around a rock, or if I hook someone in the heat of battle I usually shake their build back and forth to prevent them from getting a clean shot on me or my allies. And as I mentioned above I have also used it to flip heavy builds such as reaper humpbacks to make them and easy target to pick off, sometimes tipping the scales of the battle. 

Finally the skinner is just plain fun to use. It's kind of a running joke in my clan that one of us will line up a kill shot or something and suddenly it is ripped away from them by my skinner. None of us really care about "kill steals" so we usually all have a good laugh about it. Not to mention I don't think there is a weapon in the game that is as satisfying to use as the skinner, there is nothing like the feeling of messing with the enemy and imagining them screaming at you or seeing them quit out because of your antics lol. If used right and combined with the right weapons I think that the skinner is the best choice.

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"Not to mention I don't think there is a weapon in the game that is as satisfying to use as the skinner, there is nothing like the feeling of messing with the enemy and imagining them screaming at you or seeing them quit out because of your antics.."

 

Similar to Why So Serious horn then.:015j:

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Just now, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

"Not to mention I don't think there is a weapon in the game that is as satisfying to use as the skinner, there is nothing like the feeling of messing with the enemy and imagining them screaming at you or seeing them quit out because of your antics.."

 

Similar to Why So Serious horn then.:015j:

Ya but a lot more useful and direct lol

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1 hour ago, LycanHammer said:

I think the best sidearm is hands down the skinner. Before you laugh hear me out. This sidearm doesn't do much for you if you are in a light fast build bbut you put in on a heavy build in the right way it becomes a very versatile tool. I am one of the first people to combine a skinner with nidhoggs (if not the first on PS4) and people have copied and made their own version if this set up since.

The biggest difference between theirs and mine is I mount the skinner behind my build so that my build's momentum is used to filp enemy builds or at the very least mess up their aim. The builds that have the skinner in the front, while easier to use, I feel are less effective because they are mainly used to keep an enemy's build wedged.

In both cases the skinner could be used defensively to yank a dog build off of an ally, flip and ally from a distance, or you can connect the skinner to an ally that has been potatoed (what my clan calls a ride that has its movement parts stripped) but still has weapons to help them stay in the fight. You can also attach the skinner to part of the terrain if you are getting wedged in order to give you a chance to escape. 

The skinner could also be used offensively. Many times in clanwars I have caught a hover that has been trying to sneak around a rock, or if I hook someone in the heat of battle I usually shake their build back and forth to prevent them from getting a clean shot on me or my allies. And as I mentioned above I have also used it to flip heavy builds such as reaper humpbacks to make them and easy target to pick off, sometimes tipping the scales of the battle. 

Finally the skinner is just plain fun to use. It's kind of a running joke in my clan that one of us will line up a kill shot or something and suddenly it is ripped away from them by my skinner. None of us really care about "kill steals" so we usually all have a good laugh about it. Not to mention I don't think there is a weapon in the game that is as satisfying to use as the skinner, there is nothing like the feeling of messing with the enemy and imagining them screaming at you or seeing them quit out because of your antics lol. If used right and combined with the right weapons I think that the skinner is the best choice.

Thanks for your contribution.  I'll put it on the list.

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Gun Depression:

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While I do have a Wedge on the front, this is more of a "Pyramid" build.  It slopes out on all sides, so that i have a clear field of fire, all around. 

Keep in mind that sidearms, or pistols akimbo are a backup to your Main Gun or Guns.  In this case, an incinerator, so I can have 2 Plasma Emitters, and a booster.  (Incidentally, I sold my Arbiters, bought an Apollo, so this build should work with 2 Helios.  I just don't have 2 of them, Yet...)  However, if your Main Gun does Fire Damage, than you can also boost your sidearm/s damage further.  (I'm going to sell the harpy for a Photon, to test that combo, but this takes time...)  

Unfortunately, this leaves at least one of your guns exposed.  That's the trade-off, you can shoot it in every direction, and they can shoot it back, from any direction.  However, that's a shot you're not taking to your cabin, or your main gun/s.  If you're running something like Reapers, again you don't need a side-arm to shoot Kapkans, Griffons (Pretty sure that perk doesn't work on Dakka) Missiles, Porc Barrels et-al.  So, you can use a heating sidearm like a Porcupine, or Aurora (However, that's like all your Energy, which means a Hot Red, Keen...)  To get a similar synergy.  Reapers are a lot tougher than even Arbiters, and Porcupine is pretty easy to armor between them, in the typical Reaper Brick configuration.

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Nidhogg

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Works surprisingly well on Missiles, once you get the timing/range right.  Granted, this is mostly tested yesterday with a Fafnir:

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That looks better, I'm not going to lie, but the legendary has a better Perk, which stacks on Oppressor, and since i'm playing a pretty mobile Skirmisher style, Kapkans are really the most significant danger.  

Really liking the Durability, weapon stripping, and blowing off layers of Spaced Armor in 1 shot.  That's what reload Shotguns do really well.  The basic fighting style is to time it on approach, strip them in one shot, ram/wedge, then use the next shot to hit something vital.  

If you can afford 2, I'd stack them (I had 2 Fafnirs for a while there, and took the APC Rear off my hood to mount it there.  I didn't take pictures, because the result was ugly, but practical.) Over/Under, so you can broadside.  Drive circles around them, with the Oppressor/Nidhogg buffs going, and I'm torn with the idea of getting a Howl.  It's a good cabin, compared with the Harpy, and Torero stat-wise.  It looks good, and sounds good too, but it's going for the price of a Legendary on the Market, so I only have Fafnir Banana Wedges to go bye.  (Seen a few of these in missions, on both sides, and they're deadly!)

However, with the single shot Alpha damage, and range of motion.  The fact that they don't overheat, so you can use the same Reloading Perks as your main gun/s (or Catapult) makes this a solid choice, for everything the main arms can't do.  Range is limited, so might be best with something like dual Scorpions (Unfortunately, that's 16 Energy of just guns, which means Hot Red/Keen/Radio.  But it should be doable.)

The main con here is there's little if any overlap in the the Ranges of the weapons.  So, you nape them, close, and try to strip them before they cool off.  Also, you don;t have any long range accurate fire, so those Anaconda Turrets on Raids are basically left for somebody else to pick off.  Miniguns, and Auto-cannons are better for closing from long-to-mid range, shooting (And hopefully) stripping the whole time.  Junkbows et-al save it up for one big chunk of damage at the end, so I had to adjust my fighting style.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a design philosophy, theorycraft, and playtesting thread.  I assume Junkbows will work much the same without going down to "Special" class to test them.  (AKA Seal Clubbing)  Not a copypaste meta clanwars design, but a series of Prototypes.  Mostly for Missions, Dailies, Weeklies, and also Raids when it works.  Oh yeah, and the Fafnir version worked just fine for Perimeter Breach (Normal) and Frontier Defense (Hard) yesterday.  I'm going to wait on my fuel to test Niddy tonight, but I just have 2 Hard raids left to clear my Weeklies, and whatever comes up on the Event.  I'll keep y'all posted...

Edited by psiberzerker
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OMFG, I totally forgot something:

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Joules.  You're just not going to do any better, possibly as good, but the Heavy machinegun (Technically an Auto-cannon) is about as good as it gets for shooting Missiles, Kapkans,and other Mines, De-cloaking, Degunning, wheels, generators, and overall DPS.  

The perk is basically a free Radiator, if you keep moving, and can maintain 80Km/H.  With a Seal, that's Dakka Dakka Dakka for 55% longer driving around, and basically making yourself a hard target.

With an Incinerator, and Apollo, that leaves 2 Energy for an Engine (I'm trying to make Oppressor work) and a Radar detector.  I manage Heat with Trigger Control, and Autocannons don't have the wind-up of Miniguns (Unless you count Cyclone)  

So, I guess the search is over.  I'm going to keep working on the build, and I'm waiting on the market to buy my Nidhogg, so I can get Apollo, but that's basically it.  In the meanwhile, I'm going to work on my Hood, so it looks nicer.  

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Does pushing a bot around count as a sidearm? 

More seriously, I suspect Whirl (dammit devs, change the name!) would make for a decent supplemental weapon for some builds. High shot damage (22-28/round), decent hp, can be neatly tucked in due to its model and only uses 4 energy.   

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14 minutes ago, Steel_Artist said:

I suspect Whirl (dammit devs, change the name!) would make for a decent supplemental weapon for some builds. High shot damage (22-28/round), decent hp, can be neatly tucked in due to its model and only uses 4 energy.   

Definitely.  Also, with the perk that does more damage to close-in enemies.  I just haven't tested it yet, but the deciding factors are going to be; Gun Elevation/Depression, and Rotation Speed.  

Joules handle like Machineguns.  In fact, I'm using them (2 of them) as Heavy Machineguns.  The CIWS (I refuse to call it "Whirl") would have to handle like Machineguns, at least with the Perseus perk, but on paper, they look tough.  

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I really like the Sniper Nest they put on the top of the steepest ramp, on the Farm:

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This is too much protection for the guns.  I mean, it's great not getting them shot off, but I basically trade Gun Depression for something that's going t get shot off (Right before the guns) anyway.

This is a bit of an Art Car, waiting around for the weeklies to reset, because i don't have any bonus left but Scanner,  Kinda love how Wedgefest 2020 has so many guys that don't know how to play SGW.  So, they only have a hammer, and everything looks like a nail.  They ram me head-on, even though that's pretty obviously a very bad idea,  The good ones know to flank around the sides, or especially the rear (I have the Hatchets back there, pointed down for Wedge Protection, but it's not 100%)

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Did i just read something almost like what Pitt said about hammers and nails in World War Z.

I like the nose down stance that you seem to favor and i guess its pretty good when you need to shoot near, from wide ,big area build.

 

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15 minutes ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

I like the nose down stance that you seem to favor and i guess its pretty good when you need to shoot near, from wide, big area build.

It's for the incinerator.  That's kinda the pun from the title.  That's the Sidearm (The original was called "Sideburn" on Exhibition.)  All the rest were basically a quest to find the perfect weapons to compliment it, and now I've settled on Joules.  I even tried 2 Crickets, 2 Fortunes (One of the cheaper Legendaries at the time) and one of each.  Honestly, 1 of each on the same trigger really did the trick for putting everything in front of you in mortal peril.

However, neither of them is particularly Accurate.  I think Fortunes are slightly better, and have much better side-to-side rotation, but I needed to shoot down missiles, and Kapkans in PvP.  Fortunes, and Crickets are great with Incinerator for Raids, though.  Just spray the area, and watch the points roll in, LOL.

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Well, it took me a while (And a lot of coins) to test everything on the list, but here's the results:

Summator

I know, it surprised me, too.  For "Special" rarity, what finally clinched it for me is how well 2 of them shoots down entire flights of Flutes.  6 of them, at once.  "Piff!"  Gone.  At about 200m, too.  For everything else?  

  1. Kapkans:  Check.  You can tap fire that close, and pick them off pretty quickly.  This is the primary thing that incinerators can't do (But really should)  Mines in general, but by far, the biggest obstacle is Kapkan, followed closely by Porcupines, simply because they're so Spammable.
  2. Decloaking:  Big ole yup!  Either tap-firing, or if you have a good idea where to aim, you can charge them up, and get a pretty decent spread.  Again, at 200m, the damage isn't important, but the spread really helps.  
  3. Degunning, and shooting off wheels/hovers.  OMG yes!  2 of them, half charged (When you hear the hiss) pops off an exposed Icarus VII in 1 shot, and possibly 2 if they're clustered close enough together.  Because incinerator is my primary weapon, I don't want them driving off, I want them to stay there, and cook a while longer.  These nail them down (literally) pretty well.  With heavy Cannons (Mammoth, Elephant) it takes a few shots, if they're heated, but charging them up allows them to cook a little longer...
  4. Onion Skinning:  This is what I call peeling back the layers of Spaced Armor to get at the tasty bits.  Ammo boxes, Generators, Fuel Tanks, and again, Hovers.  Works just fine for that.  

I'm going to call Joules a close second, with the caveat that I could buy a Howl for the cost of 1 Joule, and it takes at least 2.  Still the best pursuit weapon for chasing Hovers, and keeping the pressure on, so they panic, and start flailing around into corners, and stuff.  Just edges nailguns out for that, but the distinctive "SNAP!" they hear when you hit them can be mistaken for Scorpions, or 2 of the Crossbows.  (The Impulse ones.)  So, there's that.

Okay, I haven't tried Spike, or Toadies yet.  Not really interested, those hitboxes are horrendous!  Likewise Cyclones just don't react fast enough.  

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On 6/1/2020 at 10:42 PM, AFluffyBadger said:

I've used it in Clan Wars on a Harpy Pulsar hover since 60% of teams are full melee. I just hang myself somewhere and ironically kill them all. Fun to use as a brake on hovers too.

I need to try this

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