xXMrSkeletonXx

Did they hand out free Flutes and Reaper/Kapkans?

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Played some high PS battles last night and it was nothing but Reaper Kapkan and Flute builds everywhere. Every match had multiples and it was different clans and players. All the Porc guys must of been sleeping lol. I don't grind pvp much so it was surprising. They're stronger but I don't think Reapers themselves were over buffed, but it's clear OP Kapkans make that build. They should be changed to hold a person for half of their current time. Flutes on the other hand hit like relics and need a damage reduction or energy raised to 3. I think 5 at 3 energy with a chameleon would be usable for where it should be played, considering it's only a mid-tier rarity weapon. 

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Nope. 

-1 for Thisendore. 

I don't feel like explaining flutes again.  Think what ya want.  And  kaps have many ways to counter them.

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Kapkans certainly dont need to be nerfed but they do need to function consistently. Breakers are a part of 85% of CW teams right now. They require 10 energy for nearly indestructible guns and still will degun reapers while caught on kapkans due to their surprising range. Add in melee and fire bug builds and kapkans are a last defense. Making a build use 1 energy for a verifier is a very easy counter to kapkans. I dont get the kapkan hate. They take 2 energy to use and 1 energy to thwart. 

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8 hours ago, Claysdad said:

Kapkans certainly dont need to be nerfed but they do need to function consistently. Breakers are a part of 85% of CW teams right now. They require 10 energy for nearly indestructible guns and still will degun reapers while caught on kapkans due to their surprising range. Add in melee and fire bug builds and kapkans are a last defense. Making a build use 1 energy for a verifier is a very easy counter to kapkans. I dont get the kapkan hate. They take 2 energy to use and 1 energy to thwart. 

Or just drive real fast over them,

Or cloak over them, 

Or auger over them, 

Or spark them, 

Or anihillator them. 

And u could always go out of your way to counter the common strong lots by combining all their counters on to one ride. 

Also porcs are super common and people yell op.  They make Kapkan's pretty useless in a lot of situations.  Kapkans are less effective now in a lot of ways, but what devs let them stay good at is, if you get jumped(cars are moving slower) you can kap and stand a chance.  You know shotties and fire are pretty meta atm.  Kaps are often the main reason I get stopped from cleaning up on close range.  And even then it usually has to be dropped when I'm near them already burning face. And I don't even really have any kap counters on that build aside from fire and chainsaws. 

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I think it's just the meta adjusting. Kapkans are good to pin down an enemy, especially if they're short range builds like firedogs. Flutes are kind of fun becase you can pile on a lot, and players have realised you don't need to continuously lase the target. So seen some neat (and painful) players guiding missiles around corners, or making top-down attacks. Usually hovers so they can change direction fast.

Rest I think is just the use of weapons. Anything with low durability or a big hitbox is going to get shot off fast, especially if you can't protect weaps easily. See cyclones for more info. So reaper + humpback/bastion/cohort seem popular because you can protect the guns (at the expense of firing arcs) and end up with a decent HP pool. Then there's counters, so a Spark can deal with kapkans, flutes, fortunes, porcs and sometimes completely negate them. I had a fun CW match where it ended up with me vs a flute hover. My spark pretty much rendered their weapons useless and I could just zap their missiles.

But such are the joys of balancing.

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5 minutes ago, Brolo said:

Anything with low durability or a big hitbox is going to get shot off fast, especially if you can't protect weaps easily.

Flutes aren't very durable, but not only do they have a small hitbox, but also because of the firing angle, you can completely bury them, so that they're not exposed.  (Same with Pyres, and to a lesser degree, Hurricanes.)  Just put a Large Slope, or Plane Air Intake in front of them, and a roof over that.  You can't close it completely, but because of the hitbox on most projectiles, they can't be hit with anything but Blast Damage.  

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3 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Flutes aren't very durable, but not only do they have a small hitbox, but also because of the firing angle, you can completely bury them, so that they're not exposed.  (Same with Pyres, and to a lesser degree, Hurricanes.)  Just put a Large Slope, or Plane Air Intake in front of them, and a roof over that.  You can't close it completely, but because of the hitbox on most projectiles, they can't be hit with anything but Blast Damage.  

Yup. They're an interesting weapon & I think it's kinda RPS (Rock, Paper, Shotgun). So say flute vs reaper. Reaper can potentially hose down the missles, but tricky to de-gun the flute user cos their weaps are buried, or staying at decent range.. Then boxing in reapers limits the firing arcs, and a decent volley of flutes can quickly de-box the reapers.. Which I guess is why blast weapons are popular, ie their damage and area effect. Flutes are a weapon I'd like to try, but I suck at hovering :)

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6 minutes ago, Brolo said:

So say flute vs reaper. Reaper can potentially hose down the missiles, but tricky to de-gun the flute user cos their weaps are buried, or staying at decent range. Then boxing in reapers limits the firing arcs, and a decent volley of flutes can quickly de-box the reapers. Which I guess is why blast weapons are popular, ie their damage and area effect. Flutes are a weapon I'd like to try, but I suck at hovering :)

You don't require Hovers to use Flutes, and honestly a Tower build is better for map visibility.  You don't even have to put anything on the Tower, just stick an antenna up high enough to look over buildings, and launch them vertically.  That's another "Problem" with Flutes, or something that makes them great, depending on how you look at it:  You don't have to expose yourself to use them.  There's no better protection than Hard Cover.

I used Reapers until I switched to Helios, but yeah.  I always have at least 1 rapid fire weapon for a lot of things, but shooting down Missiles is one of them.  That's honestly a great match-up, because as you pointed out, IF the Missiles hit, they can blow your protective roof off, and damage your Reapers (Or whatever.)  However, that's IF the missiles make it through the Wall of Lead.  Flutes don't give you a Missile Lock warning, and they don't have to laze you until the last second.  So, it can be more challenging to shoot them down, if it's a good Flute player.

However, everyone on the map knows where the Flute player is, because the Lasers give away their position.

Edited by psiberzerker

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Helios are next on my to-do list. Just made a pair of reapers and struggling to make/find a build where they've got some protection, but also a decent firing arcs. But was thinking hovers with flutes so I could quickly change laser 'aim' to guide missiles over/around cover. Saw a player in a CW bridge match and wondered 'why are they aiming over there?'.. and then the missiles came around the corner.. Oh to be able to pop smoke!

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23 minutes ago, Brolo said:

Helios are next on my to-do list. Just made a pair of reapers and struggling to make/find a build where they've got some protection, but also a decent firing arcs.

I just switched from Reapers to Helios, mostly for the Energy.  (I can have 2 Helios with my Incinerator, and they do enough DPS against Heated Parts.)  They're about as good, give or take, as reapers for shooting down missiles.

The problem is the delay, and the traverse speed.  Reapers have a longer delay, but with certain builds, you can wind them up, aim at a peice of your craft so they don't fire, but stay spun up so all you have to do is aim for them to resume firing.  With Helios, you don;t have to worry about overheating, or running out of ammo, but everyone on the map knows where you are if you keep firing constantly.  However, if you have them on separate buttons, you can start one, then the other when the first finishes firing, so you have an almost constant barage of fire.  (Or block one with your cabin while the other fires, quick aim, and the other starts firing...)  I've seen Clan Wars sausage builds map 3 to 3 different buttons, so they can do this with 3, and just drive around, spraying everyone with Plasma.  (Seems to work best if the whole team does this, sticks together, and focuses targets)    

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But was thinking hovers with flutes so I could quickly change laser 'aim' to guide missiles over/around cover. Saw a player in a CW bridge match and wondered 'why are they aiming over there?'.. and then the missiles came around the corner.. Oh to be able to pop smoke!

Yeah, Firestarters definitely needs a Smoke Screen.  In fact, that would make more sense than Griffon's Radar Jammer, considering the fact that neither Lunatics, nor Firestarters have Radar technology, and it could just as easily be a Nomad cabin, but whatevs.  Steppinwolf could also use a Smoke Grenade Launcher like this:

main-qimg-edf7b11b9661974040128fa2d9fb03

Just the fact that you used the term "Pop Smoke" means you're probably ground forces instead of Air Force, or Navy.  Smoke is used for Signaling in those 2 services, so if you "Pop Smoke" for the USAF, it means signaling for the LZ, or Extraction point.  Like the smoke/flares in the center of Alpha, and Bravo in Assault.

We already have them In game.  They're just part of the background, though.

Edited by psiberzerker

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16 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Just the fact that you used the term "Pop Smoke" means you're probably ground forces instead of Air Force, or Navy.  Smoke is used for Signaling in those 2 services, so if you "Pop Smoke" for the USAF, it means signaling for the LZ, or Extraction point.  Like the smoke/flares in the center of Alpha, and Bravo in Assault.

Guilty as charged. I'm not a good swimmer, and although I enjoyed parachuting, I prefer to stay well grounded. Much easier to find cover down here.. But I think an in-game smoke dispenser could be fun, at the cost of hammering physics as a concealment device. Also some real-life imitating games, so there's been some efforts to make a real Spark as a tank defense.. Which would another reason for us humble ground pounders to keep away from tanks if they're likely to use their countermeasures.. That smoke tastes bad enough, and now they might be fitted with essentially claymores for countering missiles. But if the tank and the infantry survive, at least the British ones have a BV to make a nice brew :p

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16 minutes ago, Brolo said:

I think an in-game smoke dispenser could be fun, at the cost of hammering physics as a concealment device.

Hard Cover/Soft Cover.  It might work as the Giesers do on Naukograd, stopping Lasers, and plasma, but not Cannon Shells.  However, you can't target someone, let alone specific parts with a Cannnon, if you don't know what you're shooting at.  Even if you see the cloud of smoke, you know they're somewhere in there, probably in the center of it, you can't exactly shoot their guns off through it.

However, I'd feel a lot better if we had that, instead of the [Censored] pixelated blur of Chameleon, as if somebody didn't want to show their face on television.  Also, Firestarters kinda have a theme, and a Smoke Screen would fit that better than a Radar Jammer.  "Where there's smoke, there's fire," as they say.

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Also some real-life imitating games, so there's been some efforts to make a real Spark as a tank defense.

Eh, okay IRL that's just not going to work, because an Arc finds the path of least resistance to Ground, and a tank is surrounded by the Ground.  So, it would arc the the Metal Tracks before it made it a decimeter toward the enemy.  It's just not going to work, with real Physics.  A tesla tower can be designed to do that, because it also has a ground Coil.  A tank just won't, not on Tracks.

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Which would another reason for us humble ground pounders to keep away from tanks if they're likely to use their countermeasures.

Enemy Tanks.  The primary role of Armored vehicles is Infantry Support, and the Infantry also protect Tanks from other Infantry.  A tank is basically a sitting duck in Built Up Areas, because there's too many roofs, alleys, windows, and man-holes to attack it from.  I was a tech, but I worked on Self Propelled Artillery (Among other things)  That's why official USA Army Doctrine is TANKS STAY OUT OF THE CITY, unless you have proper Support.  You can cover the city from the outskirts, but honestly, you can take out a Tank with a Molotov to the intakes.  It still has to breathe, and burning fuel overheats the engine, as well as burning all the oxygen.  That's not even counting things like RPGs, satchel charges taped under a man-hole cover, and pipe-bombs in the tracks.

There's no Infantry in Crossout, though.

Edited by psiberzerker

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On 7/22/2020 at 9:34 AM, Claysdad said:

Kapkans certainly dont need to be nerfed but they do need to function consistently. Breakers are a part of 85% of CW teams right now. They require 10 energy for nearly indestructible guns and still will degun reapers while caught on kapkans due to their surprising range. Add in melee and fire bug builds and kapkans are a last defense. Making a build use 1 energy for a verifier is a very easy counter to kapkans. I dont get the kapkan hate. They take 2 energy to use and 1 energy to thwart. 

There is absolutely 0 counter for a Kapkan that gets dropped close from the side when you're pushing someone. No amount of energy will "thwart" them. Kapkans need a 15 second or so activation timer if anything. And Breakers are barely used in top 10 CW, definitely not used top 3. Any Reaper that gets surprised by melee/fire deserves what they get, you have a weapon that can de-cloak, plus most are spiders and the Harvester guys take forever if at all to kill those. 

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16 minutes ago, xXMrSkeletonXx said:

There is absolutely 0 counter for a Kapkan that gets dropped close from the side when you're pushing someone.

Meat Grinders.  Unfortunately, the only one that uses them is the Horridrake, and if they get right next to that, it's already gone horribly south.  So, being good against Kapkan isn't enough to make them viable, with everything else that's wrong with them.

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1 hour ago, xXMrSkeletonXx said:

Kapkans need a 15 second or so activation timer if anything.

Agreed, kapkans used on offense are the most annoying... now 15 seconds might be a bit much but it's a good point. Even only a 3-4 seconds delay would change how they're used.

Edited by fftunes4real
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1 hour ago, xXMrSkeletonXx said:

There is absolutely 0 counter for a Kapkan that gets dropped close from the side when you're pushing someone. No amount of energy will "thwart" them. Kapkans need a 15 second or so activation timer if anything. And Breakers are barely used in top 10 CW, definitely not used top 3. Any Reaper that gets surprised by melee/fire deserves what they get, you have a weapon that can de-cloak, plus most are spiders and the Harvester guys take forever if at all to kill 

There is activation time...but yes, if you stop, you can be caught. If that is your fear, dont run that close to them/into them. A spark can pop them. People often times will use a part on their car to pop them even after they are harpooned. 

Insert melee/firebug into breaker if that makes you happy. Some teams may not run any of those but the majority do.

Reapers can decloak but they arent a gonna kill anything driving straight at them. That is the whole point of the kapkan...it serves to balance close range with medium and far. Without kapkans, you we see a great jump in close quarters builds.

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1 hour ago, fftunes4real said:

Agreed, kapkans used on offense are the most annoying... now 15 seconds might be a bit much but it's a good point. Even only a 3-4 seconds delay would change how they're used.

A 3-4 second delay would make them close to useless. 

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1 hour ago, Claysdad said:

A 3-4 second delay would make them close to useless. 

I doubt that. You would have to use them tactically instead of as an easy failsafe button.

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54 minutes ago, fftunes4real said:

I doubt that. You would have to use them tactically instead of as an easy failsafe button.

I say, do away with kapkan altogether. Despite what 0 range mains believe, kapkan is a handicap in their favor to justify ranged weapons being so weak at their (supposed) optimal range. Yes be rid of kapkan, instead I should be able to kill you in 5-10 seconds from 200 meters.:gunner:

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56 minutes ago, fftunes4real said:

 You would have to use them [Kapkans] tactically instead of as an easy failsafe button.

Strategically is placing them as traps for people to find.  Tactically is ramming someone with a Sparkester, and dropping it so they can't get away.  

Basically, Strategy is what you do to set up the fight in your favor (For instance Build Strategy) Tactics are how you fight.  (Close Quarters tactics)

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