HammeredByNature

A Real Porcupine Solution for Balance

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The solution is extremely simple...

Any player with porcupine relic weapons, no matter how many they posses will be limited to having 20 barrels at the very most on the battlefield..

if a player launches more and it exceeds the limit then the required number will explode in order for the limit not to be exceeded..

when an explosion from a porcupine happens that's over reached the limit the fire puddle will last for 2 seconds at the most before disappearing.

In return the porcupine receives a better launching speed so that it can move further away..

Or perhaps a slightly better launching speed and a 100kg weight reduction and a 40-60 durability buff perhaps...

 

This idea wont allow players in Missions, clan wars or raids to completely flood the battlefield with porcupines...

With raids in particular this is a nightmare as it can get stuck under allied players wheels and badly effect their ability to steer or accelerate..

Since King MinerLayers are already limited with how many can be placed it's only fair that porcupines have a similar limitation....

I personally Own 2 porcupines myself so i'm not posting this to deliberately devalue the weapon or make it worthless...

Hence why I thought of some way to compensate for the overpowered advantage they currently have...

Also if porcs are used in a powerscore in missions thats under 8.5k then the number of barrels that can be launched should be 8 at the very most before exploding!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited by HammeredByNature
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A pork owner who wants others to have better game experience , by sort of giving up some of his spamming abilities, saying it out loud in public?

If so, you rock.

 

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The problem is scale, having one as support on a build is not op in any way, neither is having 2 or 3 but builds with 4 or 5 can spam so many barrels without limitation that it starts to get problematic, when the game starts to lag there is a problem.

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The question is, what do we want porcs to be? Are they a minelayer or the best melee weapon in the game? So far from what I see porcs just hold W and pulverize you at melee range with what can only be called rechargeable Lancelots. Your tweak would push it further into that role, and further away from being a minelayer.

IMO it needs to have it DPS/durability reduced. That would make it more of a minelayer and less of a relic Lancelot. But whatever, devs will probably make it invulnerable while in fire or some cr*p like that.

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20 minutes ago, Beni_Stingray1 said:

The problem is scale, having one as support on a build is not op in any way, neither is having 2 or 3 but builds with 4 or 5 can spam so many barrels without limitation that it starts to get problematic, when the game starts to lag there is a problem.

Agreed, though 3 Porcupines, and 2 Kapkans is still pretty OP on a Hover.  Especially in Raids.

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18 minutes ago, Clebardman said:

The question is, what do we want porcs to be? Are they a minelayer or the best melee weapon in the game? So far from what I see porcs just hold W and pulverize you at melee range with what can only be called rechargeable Lancelots. Your tweak would push it further into that role, and further away from being a minelayer.

IMO it needs to have it DPS/durability reduced. That would make it more of a minelayer and less of a relic Lancelot. But whatever, devs will probably make it invulnerable while in fire or some cr*p like that.

I'd allow like 1 pork launcher per team in raids/pvp, and 2 launchers in cw per team to spam around.

Or double the ps, add +1 energy drain, make the launchers health -60%, plus reduce amount of barrels out to 3. Add lots of weight and or grow the module size.

And heavy self damage,so if the pork spammer even scratches one of his barrels he loses tons of health in a split second.

 

Edited by Siberian_Jay3x6
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Is the porc op against the spark or any shots landed on u when porcing ? There are so many counters existing against a porc player as sniper or "smart doggy" and yes it exists ! :good:
And most dangerous thing for any porc player his own fire...Don't think any nerf about the porc js a good answer, learning basic moves to counter it is the way, get behind, on the side, use tap fire with the spark is not so hard a lot of melee clan can erase a porc build even after a 30 sec porc and kapcan spam so idk what is ur experience but this is mine and i play both, melee and porc...

And speaking of the king, i think it deserve more instead of being nerfed as it was... 

to finish and to give porc haters a point, low ps should be porc free indeed but same as for any kind of relics... !

best regards

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6 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Agreed, though 3 Porcupines, and 2 Kapkans is still pretty OP on a Hover.  Especially in Raids.

I couldnt see myself having any Fun with such build ,in raids. Hard to see porks as a weapon or see their users more than as people who cant aim or shoot. Sure its effective but as i like stupid things like pride and honor, porks are bottom of the barrel in those rankings and i was stupid to think thought cloaks and hovers are .:015j:

And hey, not everyone is playing cw, and not everyone even wants to go the easiest and most effective way by using the most profitable gear. Thats what most forget. I mean sure one can go hover+pork to spam raids but is it Fun to him, or does he think he is cool in eyes of others in same raid? 

Edited by Siberian_Jay3x6

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4 minutes ago, TOORIKU said:

Is the porc op against the spark or any shots landed on u when porcing ?

I started using Sparks for minesweeping (Actually ran into more King mines than Porcupines) in Clan Wars.  

The fact that there is a counter does not make it any more balanced.  If the Counter, or counterS were as powerful, then they would be balanced with each other.  As it stands, you can have a Spark, or a Porcupine and a Reload Engine, like Colossus, for the same Energy.  

That's not Balanced.

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Mmh, hard to say.

 

On one hand Porc is indeed a weapon that can take on multiple types of builds (It counters practically all ground based builds) while requiring fairly specific methods or tools to counter it (Spark, another Porcupine or distance in general). On the other hand it is also one of the 100% reliable counters to melee builds which are everywhere atm. So partly the popularity of Porcs is a direct response to the popularity of melees.

 

Back in 2018 Porcupines weren't such an issue even if Porc spam was a thing. The reason was because no one ran them on hovers. People were often forced to run the Porcs on slow and heavy crafts which were able to survive their own fire which meant the crafts were slow. Add a craft that's fast enough to rival faster ground-based builds and enough durability to survive the onslaught and no wonder the popularity has risen.

 

Personally I've never seen the ability to spam them everywhere as much of a problem per se. A small problem is the fact you can't see them on the ground because they're small and dark. Being able to see the barrels would probably help a lot in dealing with them, either by shooting or avoiding them. I really think the main issue of Porcs is like Cleb said: They are pretty much the best melee weapon in the game.

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The problem with balancing Porcupines is it's not just 1 Problem, because it's not like 1 Weapon.  

As a Support Weapon, it's the only Incendiary (Heat based) damage for 3 Energy.  Aurora, Trigger, and Flame Throwers=4.  Incinerator (Arguably the best for Heating) =6, and Mandrake a whopping 8 Energy.  

So, just for Fire Support, Porcupine is the easiest to fit into any build, it costs less Energy than Apollo gives, so you can add it onto a 12 Energy build with a Gasgen.  Or a Heavy Cabin, and Apollo.  Or Apollo+Colossus.  Or Doppler...  

This is just 1 stat, where it pretty much out-shines all the other options for Heating Parts, Area Denial, or Fire and Forget damage.  Keep in mind that most of the other options are single purpose, and relatively weak.  Sure, you could add a Firebug for your 4 Energy, but it's Just a Flame Thrower, and you have to get into Contact Distance to use it.  You can't just spam a bunch of them all over your base, and fly on to the battle.  You can't just dump them in front of the Bot Spawn to light up, and destroy an entire wave, then strafe back behind cover, so you don't take any damage, and you can still face-hug with Porcupines, take a little damage, knowing that the enemy will be destroyed first.

So, what's the incentive to make a Firebug instead of a Porcupine Build?  My main problem is that you get a minelayer, a grenade launcher, and fire support in one neat little package, or you can have 4 Flame Throwers, and NOTHING ELSE.  2 Howitzers, AND NOTHING ELSE.  2 Incinerators, and a Spark to Defend yourself, but not with a Heavy Cabin, or a better Engine than Hot Red.  Not with even a Maxwell.    

Edited by psiberzerker
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The fact that Porcs can be very annoying in raids is not because of Porc, but because of the rude and selfish behavior of the player. Especially Hover Porc combos.

In PvP I don't even see them that often.

 

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6 minutes ago, Clebardman said:

@psiberzerker The heating of porc is absolutely, totally negligible tbh. 

A porcupine barrel.  Not 60.  You can spam 60 on the field at once, and the heating is Cumulative.  Also, that's enough to lag the game for everyone.

I don't call that "Negligible."  Now, compare the Heating, and Damage of 5 Porcupines (With Colossus) to 4 Aurora with a Photon.  It's not just heating, it's heating, blast, and DoTs.  

That's how you look at Balance.  I was breaking it down to 1 thing, for relative simplicity, because even that was a pretty long post.  Now, compare it Energy for Energy (4x3=2x6) with Retchers as a Grenade Launcher.

Edited by psiberzerker

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Just now, psiberzerker said:

A porcupine barrel.  Not 60.  You can spam 60 on the field at once, and the heating is Cumulative.  Also, that's enough to lag the game for everyone.

I don;t call that "Negligible."

but 60 barrels of porc will one-shot you. the 7.2 damage/second f its fire will melt all your parts long before they heat anywhere close to even 15-20%.

It's a simple matter of DPS vs heating rate. It does not have the heating rate to properly heat up anything before demolishing it with raw damage output. Demolishing targets is arguably better than simply heating them, but my point still stands. If you wanna buy a porc to heat up people as I read, you'll IMO be disappointed as it's not the weapons for that.

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1 hour ago, HammeredByNature said:

Any thoughts?

Limiting the spam of barrels each player can put out at once without touching the weapon at all? I find this solution VERY elegant and practical.

You can still put 5 Porcs on your car, sure, but having 1 Porc dishing out the same amount of barrles a 5 Porc Echo Colossus seems to be the best solution to fight barrel spam.

+1

Still doesn't fix Porcs sealclubbing at lower power scores, but it sure will help people deal with it in a more oraganic way without messing the weapon too much.

Edited by lucashc90
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Just now, lucashc90 said:

Limiting the spam of barrels each player can put out at once without touching the weapon at all? I find this solution VERY elegant and practical.

You can still put 5 Porcs on your car, sure, but having 1 Porc dishing out the same amount of barrles a 5 Porc Echo Colossus seems to be the best solution to fight barrels spam.

 

Still doesn't fix Porcs sealclubbing at lower power scores, but it sure will help people deal with it in a more oraganic way without messing the weapon too much.

it relegates it even more into repeatable hover Lancelots tho.

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5 minutes ago, Clebardman said:

but 60 barrels of porc will one-shot you.

If they're all on the same target.  You can also spread them around so that they heat an entire Team crowded into the Base, for example.

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I can understand porc can be some real issue sometimes but still there are lot worst Op things in the game atm like the griffon perk or the horizontal drakes and the lack of any possibility of a tank build existence in any modes except PVE.

Xo is ruled by mobility and dps mostly and the only answer to this is teamplay and focusing 

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Like I said, it's a lot of things, but the highest priority for me is Friendly Fire.  A Porcupine Player can just spam them under allies' Tracks, and Wheels to interfere with your Mobility, then fly on (Hovers almost exclusively use this) ahead to solo the entire raid while you flip yourselves back over, and try to get out of the trees.  Or, just Self Destruct, and burn a Repair Kit, until they do it again.  And again, and again.

The fact that you can spam them to lock down your Allies, as well as your Enemies is an exploit, that doesn't get enough attention, because of more important things like their Damage, or being exclusive to Uranium/Pay to Win.  These are problems too, but the ability to cripple your own team and take all the points, so that the randos waste up to 60 fuel is just pure unadulterated Exploit.

Edited by psiberzerker
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hehe i ll rather say pay to play since i daily kill relics users with leech or hulk around 6k ps, but if u got trolled by some porc hover it's not the porc fault, porc has his own will i d like to say and sometimes get under ur ally even if it wasn't the plan and concerns only wheeled build tbh and sometimes annoying sometimes fun on the enemy side

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1 hour ago, Psychq said:

The fact that Porcs can be very annoying in raids is not because of Porc, but because of the rude and selfish behavior of the player. Especially Hover Porc combos.

In PvP I don't even see them that often.

 

Heh, like this one guy i watched trying hard to sort of fly/climb in to that hole where bots in raid come from, and puking that ridiculous barrel spam from his hovers 4+? Pork pukers, in that cave hole while others ,i guess just stared his action and felt..pity?

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2 hours ago, psiberzerker said:

Agreed, though 3 Porcupines, and 2 Kapkans is still pretty OP on a Hover.  Especially in Raids.

Strong? Maybe, OP? I think not. My 10k dial cyclone build or ma 10k triple Arbiter build can keep up with them in raids and its a perfect counter in pvp but its a fair one i think.

I can easily destroy the barrels but when i get caught in kapkan im *****, i think thats pretty fair for both partys.

Against 4 or 5 it gets almost impossible and then theres the game engine not being able to keep up, thats another problem.

Make them 4 energy imo, so you can have 3 with modules or you can have 4 wihtout modules, increase PS a little bit and it should be fine.

Edited by Beni_Stingray1
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2 minutes ago, Beni_Stingray1 said:

Make them 4 energy imo, so you can have 3 with modules or you can have 4 wihtout modules, increase PS a little bit and it should be fine.

Agree with this.  I'm not going to argue the rest.  One player's "OP" is another's "Strong" and yet another's "Cheese."  Whatever labels you want to put on it, that build (3 Porcupines, and 2 Kapkans on a sideways Hover) is not Balanced.

Edited by psiberzerker

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1 hour ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Heh, like this one guy i watched trying hard to sort of fly/climb in to that hole where bots in raid come from, and puking that ridiculous barrel spam from his hovers 4+? Pork pukers, in that cave hole while others ,i guess just stared his action and felt..pity?

yup

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