TimingToEat

Please give Icarus a little love

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Above rust i would say, everyone with a 6k build can play cw in rust, doesnt mean he has any more experience or knowledge.

For the rest fair point, good you start somewhere, at least something you have over bobbil.

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14 minutes ago, Beni_Stingray1 said:

Above rust i would say, everyone with a 6k build can play cw in rust, doesnt mean he has any more experience or knowledge.

This is starting to get a little off topic, but honestly, it was one of those "Huh!" moments, when I saw a Nova Hover, with Aegis (I assume that's what the Cheetah was for) in Clan Wars.  I even talked to him a little between matches, and he said it works "All right."  (Specifically Nova/Aegis.)

I was actually pleasantly surprised how experimental some of the other Clans are, this time around.  I assume in Rust league, we're pretty experimental, too.  We haven't gives any 6Ks chances to get their feet wet, but we have run with a few 8ks, just to fill out that 4th spot.  

Of course, the fast majority are straight up the Most Efficient Tactics Available Meta.  However, the few experimental matches break up the boring grind a bit.  

Edited by psiberzerker

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12 hours ago, CamoWraith said:

One of the reasons why Icarus VII is so popular is because of its versatility. It has the low power drain of a light build, the top speed of a medium build, and the net tonnage of a heavy build. Combine these previous mentioned traits with the flip resistance, pivoting, and strafing, hovers can wield most weaponry better than a lot of the other movement parts. Spiders may be sturdier, but they're much slower. Hovers cars have a better balance of speed and toughness. I think something needs to be done to change this balance.

I'm against downright nerfing hovers because one of the two things will happen:

1. Players will just adapt to the change and it will still be super effective.

2. If made unplayable, players will just use the next best movement parts. I'm guessing it would be a lot of spiders vs dogs, droneboats, and shotgun wedges. 

I think the devs should focus on improving ML-200, Tracks, Bigrams, and Meatgrinders first. They should make the under performing parts viable in high PS and Clan Wars and then focus on balancing hovers.

I'm getting sick of the Hovers vs Bigfoot builds. I wish there was more variety.

I think your points are fair.

 

I personally feel like the devs have somewhat painted themselves into a corner with what the hovers are right now. If one was to buff other movement parts to make 'em more competetive against hovers, you'd need to focus on things like how they accelerate or how easily they flip over. In a nutshell giving every car almost instantanous acceleration or cat physics (so the crafts always land on their feet) would be a solution that makes most sense from this standpoint. Eh, sounds little complicated to me.

 

Or the other option is take that crazy acceleration and immunity flipping away from hovers and then give them some sensible soft-stats and start from there. I could see Icari haivng the current durability but half the weight. Basically take some cues from the rare light wheels and use those stats (and especialy the stat ratios) as a guideline. Then because the stats are somewhat akin to the light wheels, the real advantages of hovers would be the ability to strafe and control itself in mid-air.

 

If the acceleration was reasonable I could even see Icari without a speed cap so folks can genuinely pick whatever cabin they want for their hovercrafts and go with that. With lighter cabin comes lower acceleration so it follows the game's own logic of "Acceleration or top speed; pick one". You can control the scaleability and synergy with Colossus via power drain. The more Icari draw power, the less it scales (in terms of how many can you put on your build) and the less it synergizes with Colossus. 10% power drain works for small wheels so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Icari too.

 

Because there was no immunity to flipping, building those impossibly narrow sideways hovers at 6-10K PS can't be utilized anymore. Instead you'll do what everybody else does: build your craft wider so you don't get flipped over.

 

Either way the balance starts with all the parts playing by the same physical rules.

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I don’t have a problem with hovers as they are currently, but it seems to me increasing the power drain slightly would address a lot of the complaints I see here, and would be very simple to implement.

Having said that, the recent change to non-ST wheel power drain is basically an indirect nerf to hovers, which is another tactic the devs could take. 

I definitely wouldn’t say no to any buffs to tracks/legs/augers, but I’m cautious about big sudden changes that screw up too many people’s builds.

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22 minutes ago, Spedemix said:

If one was to buff other movement parts to make 'em more competetive against hovers, you'd need to focus on things like how they accelerate or how easily they flip over. In a nutshell giving every car almost instantanous acceleration or cat physics (so the crafts always land on their feet) would be a solution that makes most sense from this standpoint.

I was thinking more about making them unique and excel at in a certain way. For example: Tracks would be able to carry a lot of weight (more than they currently do). ML-200's stability and recoil resistance would allow it to be the most accurate for most weapons. 

 

27 minutes ago, Spedemix said:

If the acceleration was reasonable I could even see Icari without a speed cap so folks can genuinely pick whatever cabin they want for their hovercrafts and go with that. With lighter cabin comes lower acceleration so it follows the game's own logic of "Acceleration or top speed; pick one". You can control the scaleability and synergy with Colossus via power drain. The more Icari draw power, the less it scales (in terms of how many can you put on your build) and the less it synergizes with Colossus. 10% power drain works for small wheels so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Icari too.

I like that idea. It would make the Hover's more specialized rather than the Jack of All trades part we have now. Maybe the Devs could make the Icarus VII (Blue) good for fast agile builds while the Icarus IV be useful for heavier, more durable builds. They should make the Icarus IV craft able if they do implement this idea.

31 minutes ago, Spedemix said:

Because there was no immunity to flipping, building those impossibly narrow sideways hovers at 6-10K PS can't be utilized anymore. Instead you'll do what everybody else does: build your craft wider so you don't get flipped over.

That would give incentive for people to use forward facing hovers instead of those ugly sideways hover.

35 minutes ago, Spedemix said:

Either way the balance starts with all the parts playing by the same physical rules.

That would make sense.

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On 8/2/2020 at 9:25 AM, Spedemix said:

Resistance/near immunity to flipping, allowing people to create builds which would immediately tip over if you were other movement parts and wield weapons like Typhoons

Hovers don't have immunity to flipping, They have high flip resistance. What grants immunity to flipping is: The players driving ability. So yes, every other movement part can have "Immunity to flipping".

On 8/2/2020 at 9:25 AM, Spedemix said:

linear acceleration curve, creating speed of acceleration that simply cannot be match with anything at any given weight class

Everything aside from wheels has linear acceleration. Hovers get out matched by heavier builds that achieve higher top speeds.

On 8/2/2020 at 9:25 AM, Spedemix said:

High suspension which makes the crafts not work properly in the maps, most cover is designed around lnd vehicles and hovercraft shoot over most of it

It also means they are getting hit from behind cover as well, and generally in one of their most valuable weak spots, their guns.

On 8/2/2020 at 9:25 AM, Spedemix said:

Incredibly low power drain, only matched by non-st small wheels, which cannot turn nor strafe

They also have 425 effective tonnage, meaning it will take many more hovers to achieve what wheels can do in 5 and with their weight ratios so bad they'll never reach same amount of survivability at max mass. Not to mention the balance/driving issues that can occur from being hit by a single shot.. I'd say their good power usage is just fine for all of those downsides.

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Just now, DeviousMC said:

Hovers don't have immunity to flipping, They have high flip resistance. What grants immunity to flipping is: The players driving ability. So yes, every other movement part can have "Immunity to flipping".

Near immunity flipping. In practice it pretty much is immunity to flipping since it takes great effort to land your hovercraft 100% on it's roof so it doesn't flip itself back up.

 

This is what we're dealing with:

Spoiler

 

 

Just now, DeviousMC said:

Everything aside from wheels has linear acceleration. Hovers get out matched by heavier builds that achieve higher top speeds.

I believe it when you show me tracks accelerating linearly to their speed cap.

 

Especially in endgame where builds are built to the max mass the acceleration for wheeled builds gets so slow at the upper end those crafts actually never reach their speed caps. The practical top speed of most wheeled builds at endgame tends to be roughly at around 80% of their nominal top speed. That's why only the fastest cabins equipped with Cheetah are able to outrun hovers and even that's only after they've spent significant time accelerating to that speed.

 

Just now, DeviousMC said:

It also means they are getting hit from behind cover as well, and generally in one of their most valuable weak spots, their guns

Well, isn't it a good thing then this gets mitigated by the bonkers acceleration letting these builds be the best equipped to outright dodge shots? :)

 

Just now, DeviousMC said:

They also have 425 effective tonnage, meaning it will take many more hovers to achieve what wheels can do in 5 and with their weight ratios so bad they'll never reach same amount of survivability at max mass. Not to mention the balance/driving issues that can occur from being hit by a single shot.. I'd say their good power usage is just fine for all of those downsides.

I did address the low net tonnage and hence suggested dropping weight to make the t/m ratio more sensible. If the 10% power drain works for small wheels 8when their t/m ratio is reasonable) I don't see why it wouldn't work for Icari either. :dntknw:

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1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

I believe it when you show me tracks accelerating linearly to their speed cap.

https://streamable.com/i6jjc0

please show me where there is an acceleration drop off.

1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

Near immunity flipping. In practice it pretty much is immunity to flipping since it takes great effort to land your hovercraft 100% on it's roof so it doesn't flip itself back up.

Takes about the same amount of effort to flip a wheeled a build so idk. l2drive is all I can say. No reason to remove the friggin perk because you can't drive.

1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

Well, isn't it a good thing then this gets mitigated by the bonkers acceleration letting these builds be the best equipped to outright dodge shots? :)

Not my fault you aim is garbage either. You can't claim that being unable to take cover behind things that most others can is an upside dude.

1 hour ago, Spedemix said:

I did address the low net tonnage and hence suggested dropping weight to make the t/m ratio more sensible. If the 10% power drain works for small wheels 8when their t/m ratio is reasonable) I don't see why it wouldn't work for Icari either. :dntknw:

So you're suggesting to nerf the only upside.. which really isn't even much of anything anymore because why? you just don't like hovers? ah yeah.. I forget.

Edited by DeviousMC
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12 minutes ago, DeviousMC said:

Takes about the same amount of effort to flip a wheeled a build so idk. l2drive is all I can say. No reason to remove the friggin perk because you can't drive.

This is disingenous and onconsistent. You are basically saying the perk doesnt work but dont remove it. You discredit the rest of your hover arguments by doing this type stuff. Shame on you for giving hover haters reasons to ignore legit comments.

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On 8/2/2020 at 9:34 PM, Spedemix said:

I talk about linear acceleration, you talk about hovers fusioned for power. That right there is nonsense.

 

No amount of experience is going to change the fact the acceleration curve is completely different from other types of movement parts.

 

I did address the suspension later on...

 

The low power drain results in an incredible scalability with Icari. That's the very reason why 10 hover builds are as snappy as they are. If you make a build with 8 legs and a meat grinder it will be WAY slower in terms of response than your average 6-legged steppe spider. The low power drain also exacerbates the problem with the linear acceleration curve since the rain doesn't really slow them down as you keep adding more and more hovers.

 

This is me yesterday:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Frankly I have no choice but to put you on a blacklist since you cannot have an adult conversation about this with me. If you wanna argue the point, go ahead and argue the point. No wonder PC community views the console players in such low esteem when you have folks like you representing it. You insult and misinterpret what I say. Either by accident or intentionally. That makes you either dumb or malicious, neither which I have time to deal with.

 

You also completely ignored the part where I explain how hovers are also one of the most underpowered part in the game. But yeah I'm biased and all that. But hey, since you're a man (boy?) of principle you could go ahead and tell me otherwise: "No Spede, you're wrong, hovers are totally not underpowered, in fact they're totally overpowered". :DD

Okay, sip a nice ALFA beer here and some time to respond to this sh... 

- You might want to read again or even better; think about what you read before you respond bs. You are just trying to make other people look like an idiot by mixing things up which dont add up together with your linear acceleration and power fused hovers bs. I said fusing hovers makes them viable in competitive battles! Not going to elaborate on this further, it will make you look silly.

- you talk about experience which I tell you is simple emotion. I rather talk about science and grounded data. I think in responses your bs claim is already debunked with something we can all replicate instead of blindly follow the BIAS you are known for on this forum.

- I dont care what you adressed lateron, I only care for the bs you like to mix in between and I will filter that out as it stinks when you cant back it up as usual. High suspension is a knife that cuts on both sides; like many times you just mention just 1 side of the medallion within your bias. 

- the low powerdrain is destroyed by a multiplier, your turning speed is broken which makes it so that every good driving dog can bait a porcupine hover in oversteering and catch the sticky toffee inside. Also comparing this with even heavier spiders you can feel the spiders respond faster than the heavy hovers; meaning MORE SNAPPY. A 19000kg 10 hover typhoon build does not feel snappy at all; are you drunk or what? And if you even take into account the math behind the powerdrain the actual ingame results make even less sense; they only prove that hovers have taken a big kick in the balls and that the numbers dont add up to other movement parts. Also speaking about a multiplier; those spiders of over 20000 kg heavier than those hovers turn faster than these hovers; so I wonder what point are you trying to make in naming snappy? It seems you dont really know this defenition do you; stick with the simpeler English vocabulary please. 

- So you want to prove you just started playing again or are you trying to show off that pc users dont benefit from using a mouse at all? My advice is work on your aim a bit there; you also didnt look very comfortable wasting your last ammo there. 

- blacklist me all you want, to me it only proves you cant handle criticism snowflake. you are perfectly right about not being able to have an adult conversation with you, but maybe it is not only just because of me when I can speak perfect for day s about these things with many other people who arent baised and are able to remain neutral about these matters. I am probably not even the first to tell you this; yet your ego refuses that pc master spede sees it wrong... I just happen to be allergic to snowflakes who spout biased bs, who arent honest etc; you know. To me your BS about hovers is insulting; and its insulting that you keep continueing doing that while we show you over and over that you are biased to the bone. It insulting that you dont even listen to the many forum members who point this out for you. 

- I didnt care about your points about hovers being underpowered; I just filter out the BS you cannot prove or other people haven proven otherwise already! BS which will make more people respond towards because we all arent stupid. 

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14 minutes ago, Claysdad said:

This is disingenous and onconsistent. You are basically saying the perk doesnt work but dont remove it. You discredit the rest of your hover arguments by doing this type stuff. Shame on you for giving hover haters reasons to ignore legit comments.

Only if you decide to skew the words. The reason why it has that perk is because without it, just moving around would cause it to flip. but since it's in, it can actually fly without having to worry about when the next lil bump is coming up that will cause it to flip over.

The reason why ground builds have near immunity to flipping is because they are stuck to the ground.. this isn't a perk..

Also I said about the same amount of effort, implying that it isn't exactly the same amount of effort. it is slightly less, but not very much.

Edited by DeviousMC
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On 8/3/2020 at 12:56 AM, _Lemmy44_ said:

What emotional bias is he bringing up exactly? Usually it looks like it's the console hover players that get overly emotional when hovers get brought up. Since the vast majority of hover apologist on the forum consists of console players, it would simply appear that playing hovers on consoles is harder than it is on PC. Which might lower the advantage they hold on consoles and since I've seen a Cricket spider clan getting into top 10 on console CW, I think that it just might be the case. Which would make discussion about hover balance uneven when console and PC players talk to each other. There's a few console players talking about hovers being rare. I played quite a few battles at 12-13K today and hovers made up about half of every team, with the rest being almost exclusively wedges with the occasional spooder or horizontal mandrake.

 

 

emotional bias are empty claims you cannot back up with data. Like media who calls lots of things science while it never even got backed by the scientiffic method. You will find some in this topic like the linear acceleration bs. 

cool that it looks like that, put some console names here so I can have a laugh please :lol:

It might appear indeed, but controlling crafts is easier on consoles; and for aiming there is Ace assistance which probably also is the same as on pc. To me it appears that controlling crafts is harder to do on a keyboard due to not being able to steer for 50% or press gas for 50%; it not only apperas this way btw. Since steering is more awkard on a pc it could explain why more people from pc cry about hovers as you probably have a harder time catching them with proper steering etc. 

yes the cricket spider clan took it some weeks, but what does it prove? not much directly, it could be tactics and teamwork; or just very skilled players. We have happen to have a lot of shifts in the top clans lately and its a different world now. 

A few console players talk about hovers being rare; but this is not max ps where hovers naturally are and I have not seen them in clanwars. I play those hovers lower if I feel like, I still like to play a cricket hover at 13k or any other stuff. There is not much difference between console and pc. One of the biggest benefits would probably be framerate.

A small problem for console players regarding hover builds is that hovers are nerfed so hard they are most often only viable sideways; and most players dont even know how to change their button configuration; big problem here and this informtion isnt lying around the corner. With the nova cabin a lot more hovers appeared; these go hand in hand. 

 

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17 hours ago, psiberzerker said:

When was the last time you played CW?

When was the last time you earned uranium? Oh wait you never did

Also last time i checked guess how the meta changed in the past month that i didnt play... IT DIDNT XD LMAO

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13 hours ago, Spedemix said:

In a nutshell giving every car almost instantanous acceleration or cat physics (

They dont have to have the same mobility as hovers, they just have to have advantages in other areas

example: bigfoot counters hover because it has higher top speed

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13 hours ago, Spedemix said:

Because there was no immunity to flipping, building those impossibly narrow sideways hovers at 6-10K PS can't be utilized anymore

Sideways spiders can be built just as narrow as sideways hovers, in fact narrower - with the same stability and double the effective frontal armor

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6 hours ago, DeviousMC said:

It also means they are getting hit from behind cover as well, and generally in one of their most valuable weak spots, their guns.

 

Show me a single piece of cover that works for wheeled builds but exposes hovers, im waiting

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3 hours ago, DeviousMC said:

https://streamable.com/i6jjc0

please show me where there is an acceleration drop off.

your blind, there is clearly a drop off at the end xD... if you want ill waste 10 mins of my time and prove it to you frame by frame

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3 hours ago, DeviousMC said:

Takes about the same amount of effort to flip a wheeled a build so idk.

Literally NOT... wheeled builds can easily flip while driving over cliffs or even while turning

Funny how you say im dumb with all the ignorant bs you type 

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9 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Show me a single piece of cover that works for wheeled builds but exposes hovers, im waiting

How about the train cars at the Powerplant map? At Higher PS at least. Most Wheeled cars can hide behind them. Hovers are partially protected, but they're still vulnerable to attacks from Spiders, Hovers, and other tall builds.

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6 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

your blind, there is clearly a drop off at the end

I was gonna type something here but wasting your time is more fun, so go ahead.

10 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Funny how you say im dumb with all the ignorant bs you type 

I'm sorry that you're such a bad driver. The only time I flip on wheeled builds is due to significant effort from the enemy team (or in some cases my own team).

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15 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Show me a single piece of cover that works for wheeled builds but exposes hovers, im waiting

literally every piece of cover that spedemix is complaining about

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5 minutes ago, DeviousMC said:

literally every piece of cover that spedemix is complaining about

Come on show one im waiting LMAO

What do you even play, 5k ps wedge builds

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Ladies and Gentlemen! We are having an all out argument between Spedemix, Bobbill, DeviousMC, PsiBerzerker, and Zengerz! Who will win this chaotic fight? Stayed tuned and don't leave your seats!

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27 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

What do you even play, 5k ps wedge builds

As he says this while showing a 4.6k build. Still waiting on that frame-by-frame breakdown btw

29 minutes ago, Bobbill12345 said:

Come on show one im waiting LMAO

I don't need to, it's every obstacle in which the original poster complained about. idk how this is so hard to understand.. oh yeah.. I forget that breathing through the nose is hard for you to understand.

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Just now, DeviousMC said:

As he says this while showing a 4.6k build

While also showing several high ps parts including relics in my inventory, plus playing cw in uranium leagues, but you really have 1 more chromosome than me do you

 

1 minute ago, DeviousMC said:

I can't because I have none

Fixed

 

2 minutes ago, DeviousMC said:

Still waiting on that frame-by-frame breakdown btw

Sigh guess I'll waste my time just to ruin your ego

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