VisceraCleaner

Caucasus could have better and cooler mechanism.

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Auto aiming or lock-on targeting, whatever.

Weapons working fully automatically and killing enemies without players control are so common and popular that you can easily find these kinds of weapons in other games.
Turrets are popular auto weapon in almost every game. Manual turrets are rarer than auto turrets.

Spoiler

For example, Maestro's gadget, Evil Eye in rainbow Six Siege is Compact Laser Emplacements (CLE-Vs), the bullet proof camera which can shoot the laser beam.)

Manual drones are more popular and general than manual turrets.
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In Rainbow Six Siege, drone is Intel gathering device and it is a general gadget allowed for every attacker.

 

There are weapons not full automatic, but with auto bullet tracking. This kind of weapons are less common than full AI weapons.

Spoiler

In other FPS games where characters have faster and dynamic mobility, auto weapons' lock-on targeting is also really quick.

Smart Pistol in Titnalfall 2 can lock-on enemies instantly, and for the headshot, it needs little more targeting.

 

Smart gun in Aliens Colonial Marines.

 

Tactical Visor, The ultimate ability of Soldier: 76 in Overwatch.

 

D-TAP in Hyper Scape also does not have any delay. It just hits the target instantly in sight.

Auto weapons are not bad.
When they are bad, that means developers just failed at balancing.

And in my opinion, Caucasus is not unique and useful enough.
Because basically, characters, the vehicles in this game is much bigger and slower than moving targets in other games.
The only exception is drones but that's all. In fact, except Annihilator, the other drones get viability from their enormous durability with tiny size, rather than their mobility.
(How can tiny drones 20 times smaller than normal vehicles can have 50, 75, 100 health? They would have at least 3000 pts if they were as big as vehicle.)

Auto aim in Crossout is not as strong as in other games, so generally, Caucasus is inefficient in many cases.

Spoiler

Furthermore, Caucasus is not necessary for the skillful players because they can remove drones easily without any problem.

Nice play, _SAL_

 

The average speed of characters is so slow compared to other games, especially FPS games.
Hitting something with bullets is not hard at all in this game. (Hitting something with cannon is harder because slow rotation speed and projectile speed.)

But game pace of this game is not slow even compared to other games. (This is the unique characteristic of this game.)

 

IMO, targeting mechanism of Caucasus also should be fast and immediate like automatic weapons in other games.
Considering game mechanism, auto aim gives user more disadvantages than advantages.

It should work like D-TAP in Hyper Scape, but it should be able to target only detected enemy like just now.
This will keep its limited range and reduce the weakness of losing target easily. (by enemies with stealth module or peekaboo hovers behind the cover.)
Its rotation speed also needs buff.

 

Its parameter also needs adjustment.
How this weapon (864 kg) can be heavier than Reaper (603 kg) or Spike-1 (810 kg)?
Its weight is equal to weight of Executioner. Both are 864 kg. Caucasus is too heavy and Reaper, Executioner is too light.

I believe it should be 3 energy weapon to give more options for cannon builds.
4 energy is quite expensive but 3 energy is not much, so some players will use them to protect their vehicle from drones or turrets.
Of course, its durability and damage also should be adjusted as its energy drain is reduced.

Quote

Its DPS to energy should be lower than DPS to energy of epic machine guns but not much.
Its weight must be heavier and durability must be better.

Rotation speed should be still slower than machine guns even after buff.

In fact, even if it should have slightly better DPS to energy than epic machine gun, it won't be OP as long as parameter of new single Caucasus is much lower than that of current one,
because pure Caucasus build will be bigger and heavier and aim of the Caucasus will be interfered more often because there will be more Caucasus (3,4 → 4,5) on single vehicle.
Bigger size and heavier weight are disadvantage.

 

These changes will make Caucasus more viable and competitive in general situations.
Also, it will make using Caucasus more entertaining because this new mechanism only eases the difficulty of the aim. Player should keep aim manually, anyway.

 

PS.

Spoiler

Giving it interesting perk will make Caucasus more unique.
(e.g. "Consecutive attack on same target increases the damage. After 4 seconds of uninterrupted shooting, damages increases by 25%.)

BTW, I really wish balance overhaul for drones and turrets too.

Edited by VisceraCleaner
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BTW, i have a question. Do dev care suggestions?

 

All my suggestions for the balance patch which i wrote using personal analysis, references from YouTube, Wiki, games from 1990 ~ 2020, and all the other data,
are still pending approval. They didn't consider even my simplest suggestion.

But my conclusion is not that dev was neglecting players feedback.

My conclusion is dev didn't have ability to improve the balance.
Maybe they have now.

Edited by VisceraCleaner
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It would be cool if the Caucasus had a minigun barrel(s) like the Phalanx CIWS

Phalanx_CIWS_USS_Jason_Dunham.jpg

And it would automatically target and shoot down drones, mines, turrets, missiles and other projectiles, but couldn't intentionally target players - would be a great counter to porc hovers, annihilators, kancerpkans and other similar things.

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11 minutes ago, _Lemmy44_ said:

It would be cool if the Caucasus had a minigun barrel(s) like the Phalanx CIWS

Phalanx_CIWS_USS_Jason_Dunham.jpg

And it would automatically target and shoot down drones, mines, turrets, missiles and other projectiles, but couldn't intentionally target players - would be a great counter to porc hovers, annihilators, kancerpkans and other similar things.

Instead of replacing weapon of Caucasus, adding new unique automatic weapon or legendary automatic weapon with minigun or auto cannon can be better.

Anyway, before dev trying to add something, i hope they do some balance patches, first.
Balance update of this game feels primitive compared to other games.

So @Woodyrojo @Ka1deron balance patch please?

Edited by VisceraCleaner
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2 hours ago, _Lemmy44_ said:

It would be cool if the Caucasus had a minigun barrel(s) like the Phalanx CIWS.

Okay, while that is definitely cool, that's a GAU-8.  Also, it's mounted on the deck of a nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier, with a city sized crew to support, and service it.  So, in scale, I'd say that's too much, for an auto-targeted weapon.  Basically a Reaper, you can just drive around, while it stays locked on Target.  It would have to be like 8 Energy to balance it.  

However, if we had that, for 8 Energy?  I'd probably be real tempted to use it.  It's that cool.

Edited by psiberzerker

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More specific to Caucasus, and the entire class of Auto-targeting weapons:

They should require Radar, just like homing Missiles do.  (In all practical terms.  You can target without them, but only too close to use homing missiles without some absurd trick build.)  

Also, Caucasus should require 5 Energy, because it's not just a machinegun, it's also the Targeting System.  In return for that, they can remove the nerfs like the clunky FCS, and revert them back to true Automatic Weapons.  They could be as powerful as Falcon, Sidekick, and Cobra.

I just have to point that out:  Sidekick, Falcon, and Cobra all out-damage Caucasus.  They're that weak.  Also, one of those is a Special that drives around, and targets autonymously.  The other 2 are Rares, that cost 3 Energy.  Caucasus is an Epic, that doesn't deal enough damage to compete with Specials, and Rares.

Call that power-creep, or over-nerfed, macht nichs.  Either way, that's too UP for an Epic, along with everything else done to limit them, because too many players complained that they required "No skill."  

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@psiberzerker I don't think 5 energy Caucasus is good idea. It is the machine gun with auto aiming but that's all.
It is just slightly bigger than machine guns and if Single Caucasus drains 5 energy, dealing more damage, it will look weird.

At least the other 5 energy weapons have bigger size (Whirlwind) or can deal massive damage (Impulse).
I don't think massive damage is not appropriate feature for Caucasus.

As i said, auto aim is quite pointless in this game as long as player is good at aim enough.
Furthermore, fully auto weapons are so vulnerable to stealth module. There is nothing to do with full automatic weapon when enemy activates stealth module. 

 

Also, increasing energy cost will make it harder to use Caucasus with other weapons.
What do you want to use with 1 Caucasus?
What about 2 Caucasus?
3 Caucasus has no choice. 

1 Caucasus with one Cannons? Just use dual cannon instead of 1 Caucasus.
5 energy is too expensive, especially for heavy cabins.

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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38 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Okay, while that is definitely cool, that's a GAU-8.  Also, it's mounted on the deck of a nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier, with a city sized crew to support, and service it.  So, in scale, I'd say that's too much, for an auto-targeted weapon.  Basically a Reaper, you can just drive around, while it stays locked on Target.  It would have to be like 8 Energy to balance it.  

However, if we had that, for 8 Energy?  I'd probably be real tempted to use it.  It's that cool.

Just the Caucasus, but instead of the two barrels it would have a Equalizer's minigun barrel instead would be fine. And it would function like the Phalanx does - fully automatic minigun to shoot down missiles, drones, mines and those kinds of things.

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Just now, VisceraCleaner said:

Single Caucasus drains 5 energy, dealing more damage, it will look weird.

Compare it to the Whirlwind.  + the targeting system.

Just now, VisceraCleaner said:

I don't think massive damage is not appropriate characteristic for Caucasus.

LOL!  I didn;t say "Massive Damage."  I said at least as much damage as Sidekick, a Special.  decent damage.  if it dealt Massive Damage, then it would out-class other Epics, like Whirlwind.  

Just now, VisceraCleaner said:

As i said, auto aim is quite pointless in this game as long as player is good at aim enough.

I've been told that the original intent was to guard your position, while using weapons like Clarinet TOW.  I see no reason not to believe this, based on the circumstantial evidence of the Hans perks.  As it stands, you can use Python to watch your back, while you pilot the Missile (Which is also woefully under-powered) for more damage, and less Energy than Caucasus all ready.

Just now, VisceraCleaner said:

What do you want to use with 1 Caucasus?

Calarinet TOW.

Just now, VisceraCleaner said:

What about 2 Caucasus?

Possibly Incinerator, depending on how effective they are, while I aim the catapult.

 

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3 minutes ago, _Lemmy44_ said:

Just the Caucasus, but instead of the two barrels it would have a Equalizer's minigun barrel instead would be fine. And it would function like the Phalanx does - fully automatic minigun to shoot down missiles, drones, mines and those kinds of things.

Okay.  Yeah.  This, all of this.  +1.

Also, I was thinking.  if they're required to link with a radar, or Radar Detector to target.  They could be linked with Occulus, to target Cloaked vehicles.  Automatically.

Edited by psiberzerker

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27 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

LOL!  I didn;t say "Massive Damage."  I said at least as much damage as Sidekick, a Special.  decent damage.  if it dealt Massive Damage, then it would out-class other Epics, like Whirlwind.  

If 5 energy Caucasus only deals 'decent damage' as much as Sidekick, then isn't it grabage?

5 energy epic dealing damage as much as 4 energy Special? It is not decent at all.
According to your suggestion, dual Caucasus will consume 10 energy, then it should have value as much as 10 energy in overall.
Damage + durability + range + aim ability (rotation speed & accuracy) + unique ability (perk or whatever) = total value

Basically, its bullet has range limit and its enemy targeting range (within detection range) is not long. It is weapon for medium ~ close range.
And i don't think this dual Caucasus can be competitive enough. I can't imagine full automatic dual Caucasus better than 10 energy shotgun or machine gun build.
Both are good at destroying drones and turrets.

(And if pure Caucasus build is better than shotgun or machiengun build, it is not fair at all.)
(Don't forget there is no big difference between pure Caucasus compared to machine gun build. The only difference is aim mechanism. Manual vs Auto.)

 

27 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Calarinet TOW.

27 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Possibly Incinerator, depending on how effective they are, while I aim the catapult.

And they will be definitely ineffective.

First of all, Clarinet Tow is an inefficient weapon. Also, Tow + Caucasus will drain 10 energy and consume 2750 PS.
Your vehicle will be at least 4000 PS with common wheels and no armor. Using engine such as Colossus increases PS at least by 425 PS. (Total 4425 PS.)

Until enemy gets close, your DPS can't be higher than one Tow. You will use only 5 energy most of the time.
You can use Turret or Drone + Tow right now, and it will help you to understand how awful Tow + Caucasus will be.

 

2 Caucasus + Incinerator will be worse. It will be 16 energy build with 3 epics. It will be at least 7500 PS with no movement, no armor, and no frame.

What do you expect to do with only one Incinerator in this PS?
Hiding safe place, throwing only one Incinerator will kill all your team. You can test One Incinerator at 8000 PS right now. Just try it.
So you should use your dual Caucasus constantly to deal enough damage and not to be troll.

Do you think it will be effective?

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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22 minutes ago, VisceraCleaner said:

If 5 energy Caucasus only deals 'decent damage' as much as Sidekick, then isn't it grabage?

It already deals less damage than Sidekick.  That was my point, it's already garbage.  

Quote

According to your suggestion, dual Caucasus will consume 10 energy, then it should have value as much as 10 energy in overall.
Damage + durability + range + aim ability (rotation speed & accuracy) + unique ability (perk or whatever) = total value

Right, exactly.  We don't want it to do so much damage that it outclasses Joules, or Whirls, which are both designed for different roles, and both cost 4 Energy.  

Spectre costs 4 Energy, but you have to aim it, and consistently hit to get it's bonus damage.  If Caucasus did as much damage as Spectre, then Spectre would be garbage, by Power Creep.  

So, it's not only the stats of the weapon, but also the stats of the weapons it's up against.  That's what makes Balance (Within the tier) so complicated.

What makes Caucasus unique is it's Targeting Ability.  That's it's Role.  It can't out-DPS weapons who's role is DPS.

Quote

And i don't think this dual Caucasus can be competitive enough. I can't imagine full automatic dual Caucasus better than 10 energy shotgun or machine gun build.

Honestly, I'd limit it to 1 per build, as a Support Weapon.  Just like Clarinet TOW.

Edited by psiberzerker

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@psiberzerker It seems you don't understand why pure auto weapons can't be designed. (Except drones and turrets in games)
There are only smart pistols in other games. Or Smart gun in Aliens Colonial Marines, the only weapon i know which is not smart pistol.

Have thought why there is no smart shotgun or smart minigun in other games?
Or why there is no auto kill in sight weapon?

 

First, it can cause bot problem.
When there is pure auto weapon which character can hold and roam around, then moving randomly is enough to earn point or resource.
Bot will meet enemy eventually, deal the damage and get the point.

 

Second, it is hard to balance.
Even Smart Pistol in Titanfall 2 is called OP.
Of course, pro players can blow up head faster than players holding Smart Pistol.
But that's the story of pro level players. This is why Smart Pistol is a boost, the special ability.

Even bullet tracking weapons can easily guarantee faster reaction, TTK than average players' average TTK.
The problem of pure auto weapon is, they offer fastest reaction. There is no human who can behave faster than pure auto weapons.
(This is why there is a delay for drones and turrets for the balance in so many games.)

Maybe 5 energy Caucasus can have targeting delay, but this additional parameter makes balancing more complex.

Pure automatic weapons are much more complex than smart weapons with auto bullet tracking. 

 

Also, after damage of auto weapons exceeds the some point, balancing is nearly impossible.
Just imagine Smart Shotguns or Smart Assault Rifle in the above games. What do you expect?

The maximum limit of auto weapon is Smart Pistol. Smart weapons can't have damage higher than pistol.
And there is no single pure auto weapons in other games.

If you want 5 energy pure auto Caucasus, you should suggest proper parameters first, or your suggestion's rationality is equal to suggestion of nuke or laser sword.

 

Caucasus is totally different from Drones and Turrets. Drones and Turrets have at least duration and usage limit, but bullet of Caucasus is unlimited.

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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Laptop Gun.  Perfect Dark.  Look it up, if you have to.

I never wondered why there aren't such weapons in games, because there's always been such weapons in games.

Edited by psiberzerker
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22 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Laptop Gun.  Perfect Dark.  Look it up, if you have to.

Are you serious? 

You should deploy it like Sentry gun. This is what you call pure auto weapon?

22 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

I never wondered why there aren't such weapons in games, because there's always been such weapons in games.

Or course, you didn't because there are already numerous sentry guns, turrets in so many games.
There are turrets in Crossout for you. Use it.

 

Edit:

I found better video for you. Just read yellow word 'DEPLOY AS SENTRY GUN' right bottom.

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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18 minutes ago, VisceraCleaner said:
There are turrets in Crossout for you. Use it.

This isn't about Turrets, or every other game that came before.  This is about Caucasus.  More specifically it being nerfed to trash Tier to the point that a Rare (Cobra) is better on your build, for it's intended role.  

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1 minute ago, h0zz said:

Delete all Auto-Aim weapons.

Caucasus isn't an Auto-Aim weapon.  

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55 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Laptop Gun.  Perfect Dark.  Look it up, if you have to.

WOW.

You asked me to look it (Sentry gun named Laptop Gun) up which i already knew,

18 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

This isn't about Turrets, or every other game that came before.  This is about Caucasus.  More specifically it being nerfed to trash Tier to the point that a Rare (Cobra) is better on your build, for it's intended role.  

And saying 'this isn't about turrets?'. OK, then you should try first.

I don't know full automatic weapon which deals damage to enemies even without manual lock-on of players in any multiplayer FPS game. And i can't find it now.
Even Smart Pistol type weapon is also not easy to design balanced.

Don't say, increasing damage and energy cost can solve every problem.
If it was easy solution, then the other game developers already added that for more contents.

 

11 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Caucasus isn't an Auto-Aim weapon. 

Also, you wanted Caucasus becomes the full automatic weapon which kills the enemies even without single manual control of player.

Would say 'yes' to his question if it were full auto-aim weapon?

 

13 minutes ago, h0zz said:

Delete all Auto-Aim weapons.

I don't care about Auto-Aim weapons if dev can do balance patch well, but i doesn't seem so.

Anyway, deleting all auto-aim weapon will cause the problem, especially to the players who have auto weapons.
Just giving coins to compensate is not good solution. (Especially in aspect of marketing.)

 

Spoiler

But stupid Hearthstone developers always give chance to disenchanting the card for dust whenever they ruin the card.
Imagine dev say "We will give you the chance to get the all the resource from your favorite after nerfing it to garbage! Enjoy your chance!"

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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5 minutes ago, VisceraCleaner said:

Don't say, increasing damage and energy cost can solve every problem.

I didn't.  If you're not even going to bother to read the entire, comprehensive rework I suggested, then at least don't say that I'm telling anyone it will "Fix every problem."

Come on, man.  When has that ever worked on me?

Edited by psiberzerker

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@psiberzerker Bad feedback can cause additional bad feedback.
Although dev don't care balance problem and feedback from players much, but at least i want to leave something better.

As i said, there is no Smart Shotgun or Smart Assault Rifle because balancing the weapons with huge parameter is not easy task.
The weapon with damage of Shotgun and Instant auto aim of Smart Pistol will be 'kill enemy instantly in close range gun'.

5 energy Caucasus will have huger parameter and it will be harder to adjust it properly. (This is why i asked you more detailed parameters.)

 

Do you know that old turrets and drones ruined the game, and there was the age of droneout and turretout instead of Crossout?

Wrong change can make Caucasus 1. still useless, or 2. OP so it forces dev to nerf it again. (And that nerf has possibility of making Caucasus garbage again.)
Furthermore, you should suggest solution for bot problem which will be caused by full auto Caucasus.

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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23 minutes ago, VisceraCleaner said:

The weapon with damage of Shotgun and Instant auto aim of Smart Pistol will be 'kill enemy instantly in close range gun'.

5 energy Caucasus will have huger parameter and it will be harder to adjust it properly. (This is why i asked you more detailed parameters.)

Okay, I estimated somewhere between the damage of Sidekick, and Spector.  Because those are the 2 closest comparisons, there's no Epic machinegun turrets, so Anaconda won't match up, but they can't be more powerful than Spectors, because then nobody would use Spectors.

I wish I could give you numbers, but instead we've got damage bars.  Just in terms of Damage, a Rare turret does more damage than Caucasus.  That's too low.

Quote

Furthermore, you should suggest solution for bot problem which will be caused by full auto Caucasus.

Well, since you brought that up.  Who in the world is worried about Bots?  If you can handle Bots, you can handle Caucasus.  It's not like Grenadier Drones, where the user could just dump them out and hide.  Caucasus has the same problems as Whirlwind:  A large hitbox, and medium Durability.  No, it's not as large as Whirlwind's, but you can't hide half of it behind the cabin, either.  

However, Whirlwind is an accurate weapon.  You can target the enemy weapons, wheels, or even generator when it's exposed.  Caucasus is Weak, Rare weak.  Vector weak, and it only targets the cabin.  

So basically, if you can't counter Caucasus, with an unhideable hitbox, and a big glowing red light that says "Just shoot me" then you can't even fight Bots, and I don't see any one.  ANYONE ever going "Oh noes, Caucasus bots, we're done for!" Ever.  Even when they were OP.

They're not OP.  Not any more, they're weak.  That's the trade-off for not being able to aim.  Whatever else you have to argue with, their stats, energy, "No skill" ease of use, or whatever.  You have to recognize that they barely tickle, for Epics.

Edited by psiberzerker
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37 minutes ago, psiberzerker said:

Well, since you brought that up.  Who in the world is worried about Bots?  If you can handle Bots, you can handle Caucasus.

It is not about stupid dumb bot 'vehicles'. (Edit: AI Teammate)

I'm talking about illegal bot 'programs'. (Edit: Prohibited Software) The auto programs which will give users free resource and will cause inflation.

 

Edit: 

On 6/17/2020 at 3:52 PM, Woodyrojo said:

Question: Hello! Please, tell me if there are any plans to do something with “bots” in scrap, wires and batteries battles. Thanks.

Answer: Hello! Unfortunately, it’s not 100% clear, what do you mean by “bots. If you mean players, who break the rules and use any kind of prohibited software to automatize gameplay, then we’re always taking measures against such cases. Please, always leave an in-game report when you see such players and we’ll take care of each case. But, if you mean AI teammates and enemies, then it’s necessary to provide any additional information about any issues you’ve faced with.

Prohibited software to automatize gameplay still exists.

Dev have been working hard to prevent problems caused by these softwares and hacking, and they have been doing well.
Anyway, i always consider this whenever i suggest something.

Edited by VisceraCleaner

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3 minutes ago, VisceraCleaner said:

The auto programs which will give users free resource and will cause inflation. 

What?

tenor.gif?itemid=3821601

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