HammeredByNature

Something which might cure the Porc problem

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After my first topic on  asking if Porcs needed a tweak...

It's become abundantly clear that they are now hated as much as hovers when hovers first came out...

Raids in particular is 1 place where people hate them due to their advantage when using 3 or more..

So that got me thinking...

Only 1 faction so far uses the spark in raids.... why not allow the Nomads, Lunatics and scavengers to use them as well???

Exclude the FireStarters and Steppenwolves if they are implemented in raids 1 day...

For a while now the different factions in raids have been using each others weapons anyway so it hardly matters if 3 more factions use a spark..

 

Also the spark seems a little bit underpowered now and to make them more effective against porcs, which everyone seems to hate with an incomprehensible passion..

Why not increase the range of the sparks by something like 20% or 30% 

and reduce overheating tolerance by 10% or 20%..

This way they will be 1 of the best defenses against porcupine barrels and their previous nerfs will make them balanced if this is applied

Edited by HammeredByNature
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Give Lunatics, Legendary Energy weapons?  Oh yeah, and while we're at it, let's go ahead and buff Spark III.  

Don't do anything about Porcupine barrels tripping up your team mates, or being spammed to the point that it causes Rubberbanding.  Just add Spark, to the Lupara Buggies in raids.

It's not 1 problem with Porcupines.  1 change isn't going to fix them.

Edited by psiberzerker
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Dont like the idea (and yes, I am a Porc player!). Not because a spark counters the Porc (which is no problem for a Porc player with a little skill: keep moving, spamming and keep your distance ...). But because of what is likely to happen: if there are sparks on raiders of all factions, pepole will just switch weapons, that will fit this gamplay and the bitching about these new "OP" weapons starts all over again.

Its not the weapons that are broken, its the raid reward system.

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1 hour ago, psiberzerker said:

Give Lunatics, Legendary Energy weapons?  Oh yeah, and while we're at it, let's go ahead and buff Spark III.  

Don't do anything about Porcupine barrels tripping up your team mates, or being spammed to the point that it causes Rubberbanding.  Just add Spark, to the Lupara Buggies in raids.

It's not 1 problem with Porcupines.  1 change isn't going to fix them.

lol I already made another post about limiting the maximum number of barrels launched from a porcupine...

Both of the ideas would apply...

You posted on that topic as well so this post was a complete waste of time..

It's as if our previous petty arguments really shoved a stick up your A$$...

Calm down and try to focus on the present...

Edited by HammeredByNature
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There is NOT a porc problem, the problem is people not knowing how to play and build.

Balancing a PvP game based on PvE raids is just dumb. Raids suck anyways.

A better fix would be to remove raids from the game.

Edited by RoughMonkey
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1 hour ago, psiberzerker said:

Give Lunatics, Legendary Energy weapons?  Oh yeah, and while we're at it, let's go ahead and buff Spark III.  

Don't do anything about Porcupine barrels tripping up your team mates, or being spammed to the point that it causes Rubberbanding.  Just add Spark, to the Lupara Buggies in raids.

It's not 1 problem with Porcupines.  1 change isn't going to fix them.

Lag from Porcs come from the fire puddles as I understand it? I never had that problem, I guess its console and low grade PC related. But if its the fire puddles then  you should also have problems with good Incinerator players.

Edited by Psychq
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2 hours ago, psiberzerker said:

Give Lunatics, Legendary Energy weapons?  Oh yeah, and while we're at it, let's go ahead and buff Spark III.  

Don't do anything about Porcupine barrels tripping up your team mates, or being spammed to the point that it causes Rubberbanding.  Just add Spark, to the Lupara Buggies in raids.

It's not 1 problem with Porcupines.  1 change isn't going to fix them.

Yep. Today ive been flipped quite a few good times in raids due to barrel spam, and some spammers wont even lift you up after they obviously see you got flipped to their nonstop spam.

Who even needs that garbage in raids, and what do they think their team mates feel about having to drive slalom among the barrels.

Nothing i guess.

 

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32 minutes ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Yep. Today ive been flipped quite a few good times in raids due to barrel spam, and some spammers wont even lift you up after they obviously see you got flipped to their nonstop spam.

Who even needs that garbage in raids, and what do they think their team mates feel about having to drive slalom among the barrels.

Nothing i guess.

 

I see that as a behavioral problem. If you play it a bit smart you don't have to bother your fellow players with Porcs. You also see the same with overly enthusiastic wedge shotgun players in raids, who often have no problem with hindering their fellow players :)
In short, it is not always a Porc problem, but how they are used by players.

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21 minutes ago, Psychq said:

I see that as a behavioral problem. If you play it a bit smart you don't have to bother your fellow players with Porcs. You also see the same with overly enthusiastic wedge shotgun players in raids, who often have no problem with hindering their fellow players :)
In short, it is not always a Porc problem, but how they are used by players.

By rotating to every position while spamming as much as possible.

By puking the barrels from behind others all blindly.

Mainly the brainless spam done the whole time, and rushing in front and puking to the max to get all possible points.

Yet these hicks call for Help after they acted like that,last time 20mins ago, when the spammer on his wobbly hover flipped me on his barrels,noticed it but didnt flip me back at all,just honked and drove away....only to ask for Help 15 secs later :).

Many wont help these morons with zero attempt on behaving , ive happily noticed. 

Yes, its a lot about the spammer himself, not just his weapon.

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1 hour ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Yep. Today ive been flipped quite a few good times in raids due to barrel spam, and some spammers wont even lift you up after they obviously see you got flipped to their nonstop spam.

Who even needs that garbage in raids, and what do they think their team mates feel about having to drive slalom among the barrels.

Nothing i guess.

 

what your saying is true but Psiberzerker is deliberately being pessimistic about any topic I create and I already suggested a solution on a previous topic which he is already well aware of..

I know this because he posted on it already, this is what you call B!tching and whining and not giving any constructive feedback..

Psychq also pointed out that this is a behavioral problem which is 100% true...

When i'm in a raid I only compete if the other 3 behave like A$$ holes...

Otherwise i just take my fair share and by the end we all have a similar amount of points...

That way everyone is happy and gets a near equal amount of resources..

Not all Porc players are greedy pigs. :yes_yes_yes:

 

Edited by HammeredByNature
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The problems with porcupines are not as simple as people might make it out to be. And it is partly because they are somewhat balanced within their tier; Relics. However, they are problematic in volume against lower tier compositions.
So, if you bring the nerf hammer down on them you are at great risk for removing them, in their current state, from high level competition.

 But it is abundantly clear, they have created a negative effect on the experience of many players, due to their multi-role capability and low energy consumption. Whatever is to be done about it, it is clear there are many of you in the community who want to see a change.
One point of energy is a lot in competition, and I think the increase in energy as suggested by some is going too far. I think it is all too easy to target as a parameter, and using the "fairness" of multiples is not really valid, as multitude is part of the weapon's intended strength. It is also why limiting the amount per build is not the way to go, either, IMHO.

I, personally, think the larger fix is to change Relic tier Power Score calculations to be higher per energy consumption. The entire relic tier should be distinguished further from other weaponry, in terms of Power Score. This change alone would lift a great deal of porcupine spam out of lower-tier play.
 And while there are some other philosophical considerations to that, in the bigger picture; I am trying to stay specific to porcupines, here.

So the next piece is in the parameters of the weapon. I would definitely suggest some modest changes:

Reduce the explosion damage by 15%.
Reduce the explosion radius by 5%.
Limit the amount of barrels on the field at once to 9 barrels per porcupine.

Keep the fire puddle and damage parameters the same.
Keep the energy parameter the same.

But also, consider some changes in their physics:

 1.) Decrease accuracy for each additional mounted module up to a static percentage.
 The reason is actually tied to realism in some capacity; the idea being that throwing massive barrels of flammable liquid would create a "wobble" within the force acting on it. The more weight you add, the more this would be pronounced. So for each added porcupine, each barrel would have an even higher likelihood of deviating from a standard course.
 To go further with that: think about throwing 3 barrels - right now 2 of the 3 will likely end up close or near the same target, and you are very unlikely to land all three on target simultaneously, unless your craft is projecting momentum in exactly the right direction, in close range.
 I am suggesting to make them even more inaccurate by increasing the randomness of the throw based on how many of the weapon are mounted. This is to reinforce their position as Area of Denial, Crowd Control type armament while attempting to make their use as an Assault weapon less practical.

  2.) Make the physical barrel models phase transparent for allies. It may be perceived as being unrealistic, but it is definitely one of those places where it is becoming clear that it stirs discontent among allied players - who should be supportive and able to enjoy working with their own team. 
 This point is also relevant to all ground based physical models - like Turrets, Drones, and Kapkans. For the sake of enjoyable game-play, I feel it is a sacrifice in immersion that would be well worth the positive experience it would foster in the community.
 

Some of this may be too much, I am sure some of you will think it is to be too little. But this is my objective suggestion from experience on PC platform.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Who even needs that garbage in raids, and what do they think their team mates feel about having to drive slalom among the barrels.

It's honestly useful in some raids, on certain maps.  The nice thing about Raids is you know going in that it's going to be Data Theft, on Bridge, or The War for Fire, on Factory.  For PvP, you pretty much take the Map, and the Team you're stuck with (For at most 5 minutes.)  So, I see the Porc spam more on Terminal 45 than I do on Lost Coast.  Because there's a kill-box, right at the last turn before they can come up the ramp to attack the cargo.

Porcupines (And Incinerator) are extremely useful there, so if you have Porcupines, use them.  They're less useful on Lost Coast, because that's more open, the bottlneck on the last corner has another way around, and you have to get closer (Farther away from the cargo) to spam Porcupines into that area.

So, it's not so much a question of "Needing" Porcupines as the Most Efficient Tactic Available for that particular raid.

Edited by psiberzerker
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4 hours ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

Yep. Today ive been flipped quite a few good times in raids due to barrel spam, and some spammers wont even lift you up after they obviously see you got flipped to their nonstop spam.

Who even needs that garbage in raids, and what do they think their team mates feel about having to drive slalom among the barrels.

Nothing i guess.

 

If you get flipped by porcs then it’s your problem. Slow down and watch where you are going.

if the porc guy didn’t flip you over then he most likely got sick of doing it since you can’t stop running around and flipping yourself on barrels.

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5 hours ago, HammeredByNature said:

what your saying is true but Psiberzerker is deliberately being pessimistic about any topic I create and I already suggested a solution on a previous topic which he is already well aware of..

I know this because he posted on it already, this is what you call B!tching and whining and not giving any constructive feedback..

Psychq also pointed out that this is a behavioral problem which is 100% true...

When i'm in a raid I only compete if the other 3 behave like A$$ holes...

Otherwise i just take my fair share and by the end we all have a similar amount of points...

That way everyone is happy and gets a near equal amount of resources..

Not all Porc players are greedy pigs. :yes_yes_yes:

 

I know,ive seen pork guys with manners ,even on enemys side, as well as in raids and pvp.

Its just that its too darn rare occasion.

I donno have u read but ive given up almost completely taking any part in participating in raids if theres porks. I dont mind if you are there with just one,maybe even 2 porx,but if its maxed out,rushing spammer moron, even just 1, i hit the brakes and crawl behind others and let the spammer have his selfish ways, and i only protect / help myself,truck and minor builds but only if i really have to.

Its strange that this also upsets the spammers,regardless of how they sure aint giving any others any chances to really get points.  So i've enjoyed couple rare cases of seeing these pork hover guys for some reason getting torn by bots after rushing in, and i hate to admit but it gives me joy to see them get blown up,asking for Help, after intentionally preventing others to gain points/resources. Thats karma i hear.

 

 

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There's also too much of a good thing.  Fire Support is a good thing.  I bring along an incinerator just for that purpose, in Raids, PvP, and Clan Wars.  (Also sometimes Bedlam for trolling, if it's not a good map for Lunatic Parkour.)  

However, it's not Support if it's just bombarding the entire map with fire, that leaves nobody with guns to shoot things.  Those Anaconda Turrets, set up to guard the generators, on hills, ledges, and pipes on Chemical Plant?

I also bring Helios, and I have been, the only one with (2) Guns, to shoot those hard to reach Anacondas the Porcfest couldn't hit with Porcupines, because they're too high to hit with horizontal Launchers, with Hovers, or Mecha Legs.

Which isn't even addressing the part about everyone on Wheels, Tracks, Augers, or Bigrams not being able to DRIVE through all those porc barrels.  Nor being able to See, somebody said "Just avoid the Porc Barrels."  Right, when the ground is on fire, but the fireproof porc barrels can't be seen.  You can even drive through the lake of fire, if you don't run into the invisible mines in the minefield.

Also, that's when you start rubberbanding like Vanellope von Schweetz.  I'm not exaggerating.  BTW, I have been the only wheeled Incinerator/Helios hybrid, carrying 3 rando Porcupine hovers, spamming barrels all over Crater, because they can't aim at anything in particular, and not avoiding the barrels, because the whole map is glitching out like Sugar Rush.

That's literally gamebreaking.  It doesn't happen all the time, in fact that just happened once, but it should never happen, and a lot of players are starting to clue in that Hover Porcupine Spam is easy mode for hard raids.

So, call me a Pessimist, if that's what it takes to completely disregard all of my points, but it's not going away.  In fact, more, and more players are starting to try this strat.

Also, giving Lunatic bots Sparks is just plain insane.  Nomads, I could kinda see.  Scavengers?  Sure.  

Nobody, least of all basic weenie bots should have Luparas, Chords, Borers, Buzz Saws, and ANY legendary weapon.  Ever.  That's not fixing the game, it's breaking it even more.

Edited by psiberzerker
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Can't really understand how porcs can be OP in PvP , most low PS porc builds are either small cars or tracked/meatgrinders crafts with 300hp , easy to disable or kill and have very limited range.

Must be PressW's problems.

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12 hours ago, HammeredByNature said:

So that got me thinking...

Only 1 faction so far uses the spark in raids.... why not allow the Nomads, Lunatics and scavengers to use them as well???

What use would that be when the bots are still dumb af and drive into the barrels and flames anyway... They don't use the spark against porcs, they use it against players.

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2 hours ago, fftunes4real said:

What use would that be when the bots are still dumb af and drive into the barrels and flames anyway... They don't use the spark against porcs, they use it against players.

Spark just finds the closest 4 paths of least resistance to Ground.  If the closest 4 viable targets are Porcupines, then it hits those.  Literally all you have to do is use Spark, and drive around.  The Artificial Idiots can do that with Chords, they can do that with Spark, too.

Edited by psiberzerker

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I dont think it would affect raids at all. 

Just behind a team mate and spam, you dont get the aggro + barrels roll way further than a bot with a spark would ever attack anyways.

Pors should just be 4 energy,. And I just got my porcs back yesterday, still think they are op. 

450 explosive damage every 2 seconds + fire puddle + 2 kapkans + cloak, radar/verifier, engine. Is just too much on 1 car. Highest dps in game with every module on hovers is blantently op, and now theres griffon porc hovers to boot,

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13 hours ago, RoughMonkey said:

There is NOT a porc problem, the problem is people not knowing how to play and build.

Balancing a PvP game based on PvE raids is just dumb. Raids suck anyways.

A better fix would be to remove raids from the game.

So the lag caused by a lot of porcupines on the field at once... is the players’ fault, because their builds are bad?

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13 hours ago, Siberian_Jay3x6 said:

I know,ive seen pork guys with manners ,even on enemys side, as well as in raids and pvp.

Its just that its too darn rare occasion.

I donno have u read but ive given up almost completely taking any part in participating in raids if theres porks. I dont mind if you are there with just one,maybe even 2 porx,but if its maxed out,rushing spammer moron, even just 1, i hit the brakes and crawl behind others and let the spammer have his selfish ways, and i only protect / help myself,truck and minor builds but only if i really have to.

Its strange that this also upsets the spammers,regardless of how they sure aint giving any others any chances to really get points.  So i've enjoyed couple rare cases of seeing these pork hover guys for some reason getting torn by bots after rushing in, and i hate to admit but it gives me joy to see them get blown up,asking for Help, after intentionally preventing others to gain points/resources. Thats karma i hear.

That's fair enough, I can't say i blame you for feeling that way..

And yes porc users with manners is rare which is why we come with a bad label...

All I can do is set an example and show other players that not all porc players are like that..

10 hours ago, fftunes4real said:

What use would that be when the bots are still dumb af and drive into the barrels and flames anyway... They don't use the spark against porcs, they use it against players.

that is true, however their lightness makes them able to catch up with hovers to a fairly good extent..

But!...i'm not saying that always works and yes the bots can be pretty dumb at times...

There are times when porc users with hovers have to get close though (whether its because of the terrain or other players blocking the barrels) 

This has messed things up for me a few times when going up against Dawns Children faction on hard difficulty..

Sparks being underpowered now is the other reason i suggested a range buff and it would increase the chances of bots catching hover players... (potentially)

So that's killing 2 birds with 1 stone...

 

Also if you include my other topic with porc players being limited to having 20 barrels on the battlefield regardless of the number of porcupines...

That means people with 3 to 5 porcs cant spam them leaving 40-60 barrels all over the place..

I did also say that if you use porcs in a powerscore below 8.5k in missions that only 8 barrels at maximum should remain on the battlefield...

From my own perspective these changes would make a big difference...

Let me know what you think anyway...:001j:

Edited by HammeredByNature

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2 hours ago, HammeredByNature said:

Let me know what you think anyway...:001j:

Personally i would just increase the reload time by something like 50-100%, because they reload way too fast.

Not joking, and i own a porc myself.

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