Woodyrojo

[Announcement] Changes to “wedges”. Mass testing

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3 minutes ago, ZKWS said:

no but its getting there, it needs the damage added back too.

in our testing tho spiders were acc able to get off of a wedge and wheels seamed to actually get traction on wedges and drive off 

Spiders can get off of wedges more easily that anything but hovers and meatgrinders on the live servers as is already short of the wedge being truly massive. I want to see a video of wheels having traction too.

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Just now, reachkid1234 said:

Easy fix for wedge...

Make the hatched a bigger hit box maybe a few squares bigger so they can't wedge simple........

It'll be a game of whack-a-mole. You change the hitbox of hatchet and people will switch to avia blades. You change that and something else will rise in its place.

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5 minutes ago, reachkid1234 said:

Easy fix for wedge...

Make the hatched a bigger hit box maybe a few squares bigger so they can't wedge simple........

No. That doesn't resolve the issues with weight magically disappearing and not being accounted for while also causing other other problems.

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44 minutes ago, SIGMA920 said:

It's not going to be enough.

This is some of my testing in the garage: 

That's a super heavy walker that got pushed around like nothing even with the proposed wedge fixes. You have to stop entirely to feel the affects on acceleration and otherwise you can just keep going while wedging someone.

Against a lighter halftrack with a 16K mass limit:

Against a light support build:

This is not half as much as is needed to stop wedging even if they will need to be lighter to wedge effectively.

Compared to the base game your speed drops a crap load (like 80%+) once you come into contact with your targets, and those are idle targets you are testing on mind you, not players that will try to get off of you. It is a LOT easier to get out of a wedge with this stuff. Hovers can still be kidnapped pretty easy still, and that feels right.

Should more be done to fix the wedge problem? Yes. Are these proposed changes on the test server a step in the right direction? Very much so.

Edited by delraith
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3 hours ago, Nannookkslav said:

nerf hover when? nerf lance when? the majority of high ps dosent care about wedges. are hovers gonna be fixed? they are dominating for years now and all dev do is nerf dog. the one thing that counter hovers and they cry. hovers have **** good acceleration in all directions making it highly manuverable even when 20 tonnes which is stupid. if you have a 20 tonne wheeled build it would be a slow brick but if you have a 20 tonne hover its normal. and one completely outmanuvers the other one. at top tier catching a hover requires a lot of outsmarting and teamfight tactics but you are making jobs for hovers easier and easier. also remove lances already, it has capability for a 14 lance build to wipe out the entire enemy team in clanwars and is stupid

Buddy,  hovers will be useless now with the new argus module, amd all these melees running around completely unchecked by kapkans and porcs. Be very careful what you wish for at this point of the game lol, 

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After some testing, this seems like a much, much better version of what the last test was. I personally think that removing the damage should be final to prevent the appearance of reverse wedge builds that just sit on top of you and shoot down on you. The only thing I'm worried about with this version, although I was unable to test this when I was on there cause i couldnt get anyone to test it with, is how this system will deal with hover catchers on melees, considering that the last test allowed you to instantly delete all the movement parts off of a hover with hover catchers alone. Even if the hover catchers allow a melee build to slow a hover down, this would present a significant balance issue.

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devs u think on changes to the mastodon like different shot mechanic ,different perk or buff reload, aim and time between shots  ? or i must undersell them

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43 minutes ago, delraith said:

Compared to the base game your speed drops a crap load (like 80%+) once you come into contact with your targets, and those are idle targets you are testing on mind you, not players that will try to get off of you. It is a LOT easier to get out of a wedge with this stuff. Hovers can still be kidnapped pretty easy still, and that feels right.

Should more be done to fix the wedge problem? Yes. Are these proposed changes on the test server a step in the right direction? Very much so.

The speed drop still isn't enough. So long as the wedge can sit under you or move you around as they wish any at all, then they've got a free kill.

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the problem is not the wedge is the physic in the engine... a small car you can lift up a big levi in invasion ...

hover with skinner and hermes can fly with a tank in the air it´s far away from reality ...

you need fix that ^^

Edited by Dein_Meister_xD
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1 hour ago, reachkid1234 said:

Easy fix for wedge...

Make the hatched a bigger hit box maybe a few squares bigger so they can't wedge simple........

:17:  Do you even play the game?

1 hour ago, _cottton_ said:

Wow, didnt expected that.
From reading i got to say: good job. 

But

please dont do that. 
~"Damage to the parts, not to the weight." 
Should mean: if i got wedged and have a dorn, saw, ... below my build then this part deal the dmg.
But i think "artificial" dmg would lead one day to an exploit (as soon some new item gets added).

All in all it would be perfect if
- victim gets wedged (i.e. from below)
- wedge gets slowed down pretty quick so it can not drive below
- victim drives forward with its normal speed|acceleration
- wedge gets its normal speed|acceleration back:
-- A:  as soon the wedge has no contact with the victim anymore
-- B: same as A but with a delay that depends on the victims weigh

"B" could give the victim a chance to "react", and to not get wedged over and over again.

Ow Cottton, Cottton i know what you wanna do....,   Even slowed and without being crushed you will be able to shotgun someone butt.

So attn Devs: As logic as it is Crushing mechanic has to be added on the Wedge vehicle if he is below on a heavy spider or build. (LOGIC) :012j:

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18 minutes ago, SIGMA920 said:

The speed drop still isn't enough. So long as the wedge can sit under you or move you around as they wish any at all, then they've got a free kill.

#Wellsaid

So crushing mechanic is approved.:012j:

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33 minutes ago, Da_Costa_83 said:
2 hours ago, _cottton_ said:

Wow, didnt expected that.
From reading i got to say: good job. 

But

please dont do that. 
~"Damage to the parts, not to the weight." 
Should mean: if i got wedged and have a dorn, saw, ... below my build then this part deal the dmg.
But i think "artificial" dmg would lead one day to an exploit (as soon some new item gets added).

All in all it would be perfect if
- victim gets wedged (i.e. from below)
- wedge gets slowed down pretty quick so it can not drive below
- victim drives forward with its normal speed|acceleration
- wedge gets its normal speed|acceleration back:
-- A:  as soon the wedge has no contact with the victim anymore
-- B: same as A but with a delay that depends on the victims weigh

"B" could give the victim a chance to "react", and to not get wedged over and over again.

Ow Cottton, Cottton i know what you wanna do....,   Even slowed and without being crushed you will be able to shotgun someone butt.

So attn Devs: As logic as it is Crushing mechanic has to be added on the Wedge vehicle if he is below on a heavy spider or build. (LOGIC) :012j:

Ofc you can shotgun, or MG, or w/e somebody.
But i thought we fix one problem at a time and do NOT add a nerf to all close combat wpns :)

Lets see the case:
- wedge brings (no unfair because everybody can do that) advantage
- the wpn the wedge carries does not matter
- the wheels on the wedge does not matter
- ...

The wedge needs to get fixed. If THEN there is a problem with wpns then we need to start working on those.

---

About 

Quote

i know what you wanna do.

i try to stay realistic. I am on no single side here. I play meats, hover, wheels, ... 
and i play with and without wedge. I wedged and got wedged. 

The most importand for me is to not add crushing dmg because devs would have to be carefull with every single item or attribute they add.
One new perk could create in cimbination with crushing dmg an "exploit".
Or a new cab, wpn, module, game mode, ... .

So - no from me to "artificial crushing dmg".

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46 minutes ago, Da_Costa_83 said:

So crushing mechanic is approved.

It's pending approval, and at least I got the idea that the last PTS revealed glitches with the over-tonnage mechanic.  Like your wheels popping off when you lose your engine (And the tonnage that goes with it) or too many wheels.  

So, approved as long at that doesn't mean that somebody can destroy all my wheels as a side-effect of clipping 1 with their Wedge.  That would suck, if it went live as is.

Edited by psiberzerker
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There are a few things you are overlooking:

1: Simply slowing down the wedge build is not enough, the wedge build can still just slowly drive under you while you can't even shoot back, a simple acceleration reduction isnt going to change that.

2: Unless the wedge build is standing completely still, the car on top of it has 0 traction, so as mentioned above, it takes 10+ seconds to drive off the wedge build. Shotguns or other weapons with a high damage can easily cripple your build by that time you drive off and are able to even start fighting back.

3: No kind of limitation to how heavy the car has to be in comparison with whatever is wedging it to reduce acceleration, this means someone can build a light + max speed upside down wedge and just demolish 25 ton builds as if the 25 ton build is somehow wedging them

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12 hours ago, Nannookkslav said:

are hovers gonna be fixed? they are dominating for years now and all dev do is nerf dog. the one thing that counter hovers and they cry. hovers have **** good acceleration in all directions making it highly manuverable even when 20 tonnes which is stupid. if you have a 20 tonne wheeled build it would be a slow brick but if you have a 20 tonne hover its normal. and one completely outmanuvers the other one. at top tier catching a hover requires a lot of outsmarting and teamfight tactics but you are making jobs for hovers easier and easier

Wtf are you talking about? the last few updates nerfed hover turning by 25% and tonnage by 100 a hover, released griffon, released argus, made porcs useless vs melee, made kapkans useless vs melee, released relic spark, and more..... and yet devs are just nerfing dog? nannook just emotional crybaby confirmed?

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11 hours ago, delraith said:

Currently the devs have decided to take the approach to make it so movement parts take damage when a craft is over max weight. Additionally, when one craft contacts and lifts another the weight of both crafts is to be totaled and the craft underneath must contend with the crushing weight.

Theoretically this will work for craft that are almost at their max weight limit. This system doesn't really do much noticeable to crafts that have a fair margin before being overweight, and as a match goes on and you lose more and more mass, and this system is makes very little impact.

Instead, I propose:

Cause All movement parts to deal damage directly beneath them.

To be clear, when a car drives over another car, the weight crushes whatever is under the point of contact. As changing the physics system in the game is difficult, the better work around is to make going under another craft devastating in its own way. The above attempts by the devs just plainly don't do a good job of this (and really only stop people from wedging leviathans). If being under a movement part, in the damage area, causes damage to your craft of terrifying proportion, the problem would be fairly addressed. A good player can still 'pin' a craft by ramming it strategically, but if they slip up even just a little bit they will be taking MASSIVE DAMAGE. It also makes getting run over by tank builds SCARY.

The potential area below a movement part can be fine tuned. Obviously tracks should have the largest area of effect, and perhaps things like hovers should heat parts below them as appose to dealing direct damage. It would be fun to give the damage legs do penetration to mimic the stomping force.

The damage done by movement parts should be modified by the mass of your craft divided amongst your movement parts based on tonnage.

Thank you.

This, going under a heavy build should actually damage your car and not just slow you down, so there is an actual deterrent

To prevent "reverse wedge builds" make it so your car is only wedged when your wheels are actually on its roof, not just apply full damage when 2 hatchets are touching their roof

Edited by Bobbill12345
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This is a very bad update!

This dont fix any problems with wedges!

 

The real wedging problem is, the Hitbox of some weapons (MGs, Shotguns) are to small, thats why you can wedge an enemy and kill them easy. Same with flames.

 

ONLY light/medium Cabins can wedge, no heavy cabin. Why not nerf these cabins to fix this?

 

Wedging is cheating, because you are getting an unbalanced weapon for 0 Energy cost. Why not make wedging simple bannable?

 

Add realy new content to the game and dont waste time with "new features" that can better fixed with other solutions?

 

Why no buff vehicles WITHOUT a wedge mechanic?

 

Wow and i have spended money for this ...

 

Same situation on Hovers. Hovers are total broken overpowered (nearly every weapon becomes better on Hover), also what have to do? Nerf all other stuff, but not Hovers... madnes. 

Most of Hovers have more effective armor then a heavy vehicle with tracks... this is so extrem unbalanced!

No one is playing heavy vehicles, its pointless...

Thats why we see only wedges in the game. The allrounder vehicle against every other vehicle. With a heavy vehicle you are to slow and you can not wedge. Why not fix this?

 

 

Here are TOP SECRET information!

Every wedge uses:

- Long Blades

- Small Blades

- Train Ram

- Snow Plow

 

This is what you need to nerf, and this takes about one week and not month with a bad feature!

Stop mounting this under the Driving-Frame. Fixed.

Edited by Todesklinge
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It sounds promissing but...A car which gets under a build is...already there...which also means he can shot you from below and he doesn't need acceleration at all. He needs acceleration to get away, but he can simply destroy you first. There should be some harder punishment which makes wedging not worse but completely useless...like you had before, damage to movement parts if combined mass of builds exceeded mass limit of the wedge...

Edited by Waughan27131
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2 hours ago, Waughan27131 said:

It sounds promissing but...A car which gets under a build is...already there...which also means he can shot you from below and he doesn't need acceleration at all. He needs acceleration to get away, but he can simply destroy you first. There should be some harder punishment which makes wedging not worse but completely useless...like you had before, damage to movement parts if combined mass of builds exceeded mass limit of the wedge...

Having played a bit on the test server I can tell now the cars underneath come to a crawl. Meaning you can drive off of them because you retain your ability to move. The slower the car underneath you moves the easier it is for you to drive on top of him. I don't know why but that's how the physics interaction works in Crossout.

 

It marks a shift in power where the car on top dictates how the encounter plays out. While on top you can either move away from the car underneath if want to or stay on top of it if there's say, a teammate shooting it. The car underneath is moving at overweight speed so he'll have pretty much no say in how the scenario develops. At least that was my experience with a spider.

 

I'm busy today but I might attempt to capture some footage tomorrow to see how the dynamics of the wrestling go in PT.

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10 minutes ago, fftunes4real said:

Movement parts damaging the player below would still be nice.

yes and make hovers explode porc barrels

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7 hours ago, Todesklinge said:

This is a very bad update!

This dont fix any problems with wedges

No one is playing heavy vehicles, its pointless...

 

_ This is a very bad update!  ....... This is not update ....  it's a test , maybe will be includ in near update

_ This dont fix any problems with wedges ......  sure the worck it's not finish but they take the good way cause actually it's really boring and do usless lot of movement part on this game ....

_ No one is playing heavy vehicles, its pointless....... WRONG !!!  ....

only players who don't know how to play it say and do that's , for this you can see full copy of last meta everytime , everywhere ....

In my clan i have player who use mammoth bigfoot humpback and vs full hover ( punisher / typhoon / mammoth / porcu , flash ) team this week  , he do the best score and we win  ..... 

but his big build +25t is paper toilet for a wedge  :014:

" the Hitbox of some weapons (MGs, Shotguns) are to small " that's true for me too but not same problem :00222:

Edited by LOoD
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Best way to deny the wedge abuse mecanic is just to deny mouthing the train plow on its bottom part... that way no more nearly indestructible ramp and weapons protection... thus the end of such gimmick.

Also shotguns need a distance nerf... they do to much damage in medium range... more them machine guns, wich is ridiculous in terms of medium range.

And during PVP events we need more control from the use of third party aplications since the use of programs to control rate of fire have been increasing, specially hoovers with mg's and ofc wedges with shotguns.
I know that when i see some players on my team whose weapons seem like caucasus style like rate of fire.

Edited by RazudMezeghis_PT
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1 minute ago, RazudMezeghis_PT said:

mounhing the train plow on its bottom part...  nearly indestructible ramp and weapons protection... thus the end of such gimmick.

Not really, you can replace the Train Plow with 2 Gun Mounts, and basically have the same structure, only lighter.  Granted, the Train Plow is the best part for that now, but if they fix that, there's many more to chose from.

(I prefer the Gun Mounts, because they are much lighter, leaving more Tonnage to protect my guns, and modules.)

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