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Did a while ago but not consistent and not for too long. I was bored with the same old so against my love for the tracks, I wanted to try something fresh. It was very hard at first, getting used to it

All I've seen on the forum the past few months is a never-ending circle of hover complaints and hover defense. It's getting real old. Old enough that I haven't bothered to even look at the forum for a

"blablabla shut up or try them they hard!" "btw I run forward-facing hovers and find them OP" /end of thread Also I kept seeing you in your nova hover sinus. Hmyeah. Requires efforts, sure.

I admire your effort, but you can forget about it, this people, same as devs as much as they bash them, share the same metality of "less effort possible", the people's suggestions will be lazy as hell and won't fix anything in the end (as been proven for the past like 4 years) and the devs changes will follow the same patron, as proven for  the past like 4 years...

Do the smart thing, and keep not bothering with the forum, as you say.. Nothing changed, and nothing will in really reaaaally long time, that assuming it ever happens

Edited by xCrossFaith
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1 hour ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

For the people who criticize hovers

Just look at the names, the same few minority of people being the loudest.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

For the people who defend hovers

I can only speak for myself but i started with wheels, played tracks some very short time, then played legs for almost a year in cw, played a little bit with meatgrinders and finally went to hovers where i stayed.

Never had any problems fighting hovers, its still the melee's, shotguns wedges and other press forward builds that feel the cheapest to get killed by, even more so since griffon introduction, but thats just my opinion.

Edited by Beni_Stingray1
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Thx for your call, but i do not think you understand this dispute. It is not symmertical. It is discussion between those, who present particular balance problem, which is agreed by developers but not solved (three years!) and those who claims there is not a balance problem with them. The second group is not ashamed to use any way how to dishonor the first group.

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I don't refer to hovers as overpowered or weak like others do, they are broken. Broken as, some aspects are OP like the maneuverabillity and being able to outrun most builds while having a speedcap of 75, and some are UP like the durabillity and the shape of them.

Most people would refer to them as OP just because the extreme maneuverabillity makes them unfun to play against or to even hit with anything not hitscan.

It can't be that after several years, it's still such a massive problem, and not even the only one. Fixing stuff doesn't make money that well probably.

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The only thing wrong is calling 10k PS high , after the last change high ps 15k+ min

I'm sure anyone can go try it and show how OP hovers really are if they wanted.

 

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Thanks for the TL;DR on the conclusion. I was not willing to read another wall :D
---

Played all (except tracks), still do. But most of the time hover (>= 12k)
Conclusion: 
- meatgrinders are broken EyEf on > 2
- wheels are too slow accelerating and too slow on reverse
- bigram are toys
- hovers are too quick accelerating in relation to the added mass (as OP said: lower PS OP, higher PS fine)

Omibox-colossus-glass-hover is the worst balanced thing in the game. Lower PS (new)players will never be able to compete with them.

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"blablabla shut up or try them they hard!"
"btw I run forward-facing hovers and find them OP"

/end of thread

Also I kept seeing you in your nova hover sinus. Hmyeah. Requires efforts, sure.

 

-someone who played them a year

Edited by Clebardman
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Ye, that's the point, if you see a hover dodging everything and flying around objects without crashing - it's effort and skills. Same as with a shotty car waiting around the corner and perfectly timing invis so no one notices he disappeared from the map etc.

Imagine just as much effort in trying to control a wheeled car - using max speed, driving in circles etc and having skills/understanding to build a perfect one with ~1k ps advantage of not using hovers.

You mentioned Vector, Corvo and Phoenix. You could've easily gotted as much success using a wheeled car, but instead of juking from side to side you would have support modules (invis etc) or higher grade weapons coming from the ~1k PS saved from not using hovers.

It all ends up based on skill and game udnerstanding. A lazy hover player will lose to a good wheeled car and a lazy wheeled player will lose to a good hover player. It's just most players who complain are lazy by nature, otherwise they would be taking it as a challenge to prove they are not random rubbish instead of complaining, naturally.

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I'm not sure I agree that they are OP at low PS. This is where my art builds and I dwell typically, and I see a lot of hovers (lots more lately) get scrubbed ruthlessly, by not just me but others too. They aren't what's tipping the score for any wins where I'm playing (5k). What does, however, is periodically lop-sided matchmaking. Down at the bottom 500 points in PS is a big difference. That's probably not as big of an issue with builds at PS 9K and higher, but at 3k-4k it's an extra weapon's worth. That decides matches routinely, not hovers (not on my watch).

A naked hover at 5K or less is threatening indeed, but also super vulnerable. That's probably like it should be, because I believe the game is tempered by power-scores to behave that way in the first place. That's how I'm seeing it play out presently, and I'm glad for that. That seems tuned up about right to me (so it'll probably change soon). They're tough, and it's a challenge, but it's totally doable. That's how I like it. No problem.

True, hovers are fast, but they aren't that fast. Their speed is capped at like 75kph. That's a fair margin faster than a Docker (60kph), I suppose. Don't chase hovers with a Docker? Almost nothing in my garage goes that slow. I see plenty of folks faster than myself out there too, so I guess the problem is probably running straight at them. Don't do that, kids. Hovers aren't nice. They aren't supposed to be. They just look like butterflies, but they're not. They're killing machines that need to be fed. Don't do it.

Once they start adding fancy engines, guns, and gadgets to their hovers the power-score jumps up pretty fast. Those extra goodies are what I would expect makes a hover so awful, but don't you guys up there also get goodies and gadgets too? I don't play up there because I'm no fan of all the pew-pew, and guided missiles, and drones, and aim assisted armored turrets, etc (I could go on), but I would think those of you who did would have a lot of options for dealing with hovers, but IDK. That's not my bag, officer.

I can tell you I am perfectly fine with facing hovers at low power-scores without all the flamboyant wizardry found in higher brackets. The higher brackets are so full of aim-bots, wedges, and other horrible monsters that I don't know how anybody even notices how awful hovers can be. I don't. I'm too busy being ground into spare parts by some guy with a grill full of drills, fleeing drones and missiles, getting pushed around and lit up by Remedies, or one shot by some two-fisted cannon camper from across the map...ya, probably on hovers, just like you said. I'll get him next time.

I've tried hovers. I found them boring and ineffective at first, but they have a flight characteristic that, once you get the hang of, is very addictive. It's hard to learn, I think. Once I got into a groove it looked like it could be fun, though. I just didn't (don't)  have the fancy gear to make it work the way I want it to. I'm not going to fly a cheese box just to win. I play for fun, or not at all.

I don't think they're OP at low PS. A grill full of Borers, with stealth, and boosters, is easily just as bad, IMO.

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8 hours ago, _cottton_ said:

Omibox-colossus-glass-hover is the worst balanced thing in the game. Lower PS (new)players will never be able to compete with them.

The new cabs, starting with Omnibox, have been a huge boost to hovers.  The fused battle pass hover cabs, Omnibox, Gryphon, Nova and Beholder have so much engine power that everyone can have a tanky and  snappy hover without expensive fusions and fused Icarus VII's.  Just slap on 8 cheap Icarus IV hovers and call it a day.  Also, these cabs have more build options, because they have enough weight, tonnage and engine power to make a nice hover with or without a Colossus.  A Hot Red works just fine.  

When you go back to the old cabs for hovers, such as the Quantum or the Harpy, after you use the above four, they seem almost undriveable.  

Omnibox hovers like a legendary cab at only 1,500 PS.  The others are 2,100 PS except for Gryphon which is 2,400 PS.

 

Edited by DarthStall
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Hovers at max PS (15k+) are fairly balanced, not enough of an issue there for me to go up in arms about.

Hovers at low PS are a big problem. They offer way too many strengths there, and need adjustment. Upping hover PS is a step in the right direction, but the problem still remains where a seal-clubber hover has unparalleled acceleration by incredible factors.

If cabins didn't have a base tonnage stat (and all movement parts gave ~20% more tonnage), it would be impossible to build a typical seal clubber hover as they currently are.

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3 minutes ago, delraith said:

If cabins didn't have a base tonnage stat (and all movement parts gave ~20% more tonnage), it would be impossible to build a typical seal clubber hover as they currently are.

Once again: 

If you remove cabin tonnage, that makes anything with 6 ML 200s have a max tonnage of 21000. 4 bigfoot wheels would max out at 9250 tonnage. 4 hover builds would have a max tonnage of only 6750. That's barely a skeleton of build. Needless to say, no.

Edited by SIGMA920
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What about vets? Lets not talk about n00b builds at 8k ps.

Big boys play at high ps above 15k.

Heavy hover around 18k ps with icebox cabin is slow af, just try it and share your experience.

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18 minutes ago, SIGMA920 said:

Once again: 

If you remove cabin tonnage, that makes anything with 6 ML 200s have a max tonnage of 21000. 4 bigfoot wheels would max out at 9250 tonnage. 4 hover builds would have a max tonnage of only 6750. That's barely a skeleton of build. Needless to say, no.

Sigma, I said to also increase the tonnage of all movement parts.

If 20% increase to all movement parts isn't enough to equalize a maxxed out build pre and post change, then we just simply increase movement part tonnage some more. It was a quick post to throw an idea out, I didn't sit here and do mafs to figure out the movement part tweaks that would need to happen to accommodate this. Cabins having a stat that effects how well a jet engine keeps you off the ground is pretty frickin stupid. How would an internal combustion engine help a jet-turbine based hovercraft stay aloft? Tell me, I'll wait.

Edited by delraith
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Well, aside from the title a surprisingly thought out post, thank you. I think the summary you put in the spoiler hold a lot of truth, although I slightly disagree with some of the conclusions.

10 hours ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

Hovers have many inherent advantages other than just their extreme mobility. One of the most important advantages is that they're simply higher than ground vehicles. A hover's weapons simply shoots over the enemy's arrangement of parts designed to protect their weapons. Conversely, a hover's arrangement of parts to protect its own weapons are significantly more effective at stopping a ground vehicle's incoming fire. Yes; the same can be said for a vehicle on screws, legs or bigrams; but at a much heavier cost to mobility; which works against the goal of protecting your own weapons. Hovers excel at stripping the enemy's weapons; and that's by far the most important task you have to secure a win.

This is absolutely spot on! People who main hovers often really underestimate how much of a boon it is to shoot at an enemy's build and weapons from above and to have your own weapons shot at from below. It makes the most from the difference between wheels and hovers.

10 hours ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

Now, earlier I mentioned effort. Playing a hover build takes a lot more effort than most ground-based builds. You need to have excellent awareness of your surroundings. You need to constantly be on the move; since mobility is your greatest asset. You need to do things, constantly. Hovers are extremely powerful, but they are not an easy button. Good hover pilots are talented individuals. However; at the same time, when I take to the skies, I look like a drunken space dolphin, and while being an embarrassing sight... a hover's many advantages usually carry me to that MvP position; even if I have no idea what I'm doing. Not sure what to say about those two conflicting statements I just made. I guess just mashing random buttons in an attempt to move in "that" general direction is good enough. Sitting still is not and will get you killed.

Well I can admit that learning to play hovers well does take some practice and experience. But once you learn it at least at a decent level, their advantages will most often make you more successful than any other movement part can. As for the staying on the move - that IMHO applies to everything, including the tankiest of tanks.

10 hours ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

I feel that a hover loses a lot of it's mobility at higher scores, and so they don't hold as many advantages over ground-based builds as they do at lower powerscores.

A hover loses less acceleration when putting on extra mass than most wheeled or tracked builds do when they put on mass. What changes is the toughness of their targets - at 12k you can a lot of times take the punishment they dish out. What also changes is their "glass to cannon ratio" - at lower PS, they can just make do with minimal amount of armour and equipment - and thus they can stuff most of their PS into their firepower - and that can often be a problem to a lot of builds and players, even though a good shot from the side or behind can instantly take them down. But as they go higher in PS, more and more of their total Powerscore goes into extra modules and armour and after some point, their firepower rises slower than their PS. There also thankfully isn't any higher bracket of weapons they could take and trade armour for agility - a relic or legendary at 8K deals as much damage as it does at 12K, but both the target and the carrier are tougher.

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24 minutes ago, delraith said:

Sigma, I said to also increase the tonnage of all movement parts.

That was with an 20% increase. 

28 minutes ago, delraith said:

If 20% increase to all movement parts isn't enough to equalize a maxxed out build pre and post change, then we just simply increase movement part tonnage some more.

You'd need to boost the tonnage of movements parts by a good 55% to 60% to meet a maxed out cohort build with 6 ML 200s.

With hovers? You'll need a good 10 hovers to reach 12K tonnage.

33 minutes ago, delraith said:

It was a quick post to throw an idea out, I didn't sit here and do mafs to figure out the movement part tweaks that would need to happen to accommodate this.

That's rather obvious given just how poorly of an idea it'd be when the math is done.

26 minutes ago, delraith said:

Cabins having a stat that effects how well a jet engine keeps you off the ground is pretty frickin stupid. How would an internal combustion engine help a jet-turbine based hovercraft stay aloft? Tell me, I'll wait.

There is no logical reason for it, it's a game mechanic and one that improves the game.

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3 hours ago, delraith said:

Hovers at low PS are a big problem. They offer way too many strengths there, and need adjustment. Upping hover PS is a step in the right direction, but the problem still remains where a seal-clubber hover has unparalleled acceleration by incredible factors.

There are dozens of seal clubbing builds, with  and without hovers. It's about someone building a minmaxed good car with good weapons in low ps. It's not even an issue cause sealclubbing is usually just an excuse for someone losing games. All the "seal clubbing" cars are unoptimized cause higher tier stuff takes way too much ps and the cars end up being glass cannons that only work if played good. You are SUPPOSED to win if you play good.

Don't forget hovers already take 1680 PS instead of 300 PS wheels in. 1300+ PS advantage for wheel users in 5K PS. Just think about it.

Edited by AjaxOilid
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15 hours ago, Sir_Stallsalot said:

All I've seen on the forum the past few months is a never-ending circle of hover complaints and hover defense. It's getting real old. Old enough that I haven't bothered to even look at the forum for a few months... but every time I come back... oh look... nothing has changed. Still 8 out of 10 threads are about hovers. To absolve myself of hypocrisy... I will admit that I was part of this as well a while ago... so I'm here to try to put an end to it. At least for the people who aren't parroting disinformation to push/protect their own interests.

Now then... the important second half of my statement here will be addressed. Try it yourself, and come to your own conclusion, instead of parroting the same biased crap day in and day out. I did... it was a very good learning experience, and I am a better person for it. It is worth the coin you'll spend. I'll further strip this into two groups with dedicated instructions for each.

For the people who criticize hovers - Buy a set of Icarus VII and give it a go. Build something, or grab it off of exhibition; whatever. Only rules to follow are that the hovers have to be Icarus VIIs, and it has to be either sideways with a purple cabin, or longitudinal with a Nova cabin. Machine guns such as the Vector, Sinus, and Spectre-2 are the easiest weapons to learn with. Do not attempt to start with frontal-mount weapons. Play like this for a week or two and come back to share your experience.

For the people who defend hovers - Put the hovers down. Put. Them. Down. Get yourself some other movement parts, and go play a week or two. Try to take out some other hovers with something that doesn't have cloak and shotguns. Come back to share your experience.

As for power score... I suppose around 8,000 would be a fair place to aim for... but anywhere from 7k to 9k is fine. Do what you can; everyone has different equipment to work with. 

It is blatantly obvious that very few people play both with hovers, and with other movement parts. The overwhelming majority of people dedicate themselves to one or another. Until you have given both sides a serious attempt; you are biased.

 

I've been a grounded player since the start, but I picked up a set of hovers about 5-6 months ago or so, to form an objective view of them. I'll leave my conclusion about hovering in a spoiler below.

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

So... I hover every now and then. I don't run sideways hovers; because that's too much of an exploit for my personal taste, but I've developed an effective way of protecting them without being sideways. Then Nova was born, and we all know that works well without having to be sideways. The weapons that I've used on hovers have been the Vector, the Corvo, and the Phoenix.

My conclusion is thus: yes; they are OP, at least at lower scores... but it requires effort.

Hovers have many inherent advantages other than just their extreme mobility. One of the most important advantages is that they're simply higher than ground vehicles. A hover's weapons simply shoots over the enemy's arrangement of parts designed to protect their weapons. Conversely, a hover's arrangement of parts to protect its own weapons are significantly more effective at stopping a ground vehicle's incoming fire. Yes; the same can be said for a vehicle on screws, legs or bigrams; but at a much heavier cost to mobility; which works against the goal of protecting your own weapons. Hovers excel at stripping the enemy's weapons; and that's by far the most important task you have to secure a win.

Hovers are often said to be fragile... and often times they are; because most players bank on their mobility protecting them and invest in better weaponry rather than armor. However, the fact stands that properly built hovers can take massive amounts of abuse for their tiny amount of "on-paper" durability. Much more abuse than a typical ground-based build of the same "on-paper" durability as the hover. This is something that personally surprises me every time I take to the skies. Yes, my hover builds end up being a little more tanky than typical ones (around 1,100 durability at 8,000ps) because I don't run a sideways build and I need some defensive parts on the sides... but the sheer amount of cannon shells that I can absorb without caring is disgusting.

Yes, hovers have counters. Namely in the form of cloaked Lance and Shotgun builds... but guess what? Those counters will also nuke most other ground-based builds when caught off-guard just the same way. I don't consider this often-parroted defense valid.

Now, earlier I mentioned effort. Playing a hover build takes a lot more effort than most ground-based builds. You need to have excellent awareness of your surroundings. You need to constantly be on the move; since mobility is your greatest asset. You need to do things, constantly. Hovers are extremely powerful, but they are not an easy button. Good hover pilots are talented individuals. However; at the same time, when I take to the skies, I look like a drunken space dolphin, and while being an embarrassing sight... a hover's many advantages usually carry me to that MvP position; even if I have no idea what I'm doing. Not sure what to say about those two conflicting statements I just made. I guess just mashing random buttons in an attempt to move in "that" general direction is good enough. Sitting still is not and will get you killed.

There's my view on hovers; from what I have learned both from fighting them and flying them. I have mostly played in the 6k, 7k, and 8k powerscore brackets. I don't have a decent higher score hover, so I can not really speak on how strong or weak they feel up there from the pilot's perspective... but I have often fought against them all the way up to 12-14k, and I feel that a hover loses a lot of it's mobility at higher scores, and so they don't hold as many advantages over ground-based builds as they do at lower powerscores. I feel more confident attacking a hover at 12k than I do at 6k. I wouldn't really call high-ps hovers weak; but they're not guaranteed to be the hands-down best choice anymore unless you're using Helios, Assemblers, or Scorpions. The Scorp-hover usually means game-over unless someone on your team is a competent and fast, cloaked shotgunner.

I feel that hovers are getting closer to where they should be with the last patch. I don't feel they need any modifications other than increases of powerscore; to force lower-ps builds to make real sacrifices in order to stay that low; without significantly affecting higher powerscore hovers. Lower PS hovers could/can use the same or better weapons as ground-based builds in the same bracket. That 240ps increase for a set of 4 hovers effectively took the quad-Vector Nova out of 5999ps; which is a good thing. However, the same quad-MG Nova hovers continue to absolutely dominate 7k-8k; which shows that 240ps might not have been quite enough.

TLDR - Hubber OP at 8999ps and under. Hubber fine at 9000ps and over. Requires effort / constant mashing of buttons to be good with hubbers.

 

 

Whoah.. putting yourself in someone else’s shoes? Learning what they experience so that you can properly debate with them? Trying something new?

No.

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4 hours ago, SIGMA920 said:

There is no logical reason for it, it's a game mechanic and one that improves the game.

Sigh... it's an appropriate pun: some of this stuff goes right over your head.

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16 hours ago, Clebardman said:

"blablabla shut up or try them they hard!"
"btw I run forward-facing hovers and find them OP"

/end of thread

Also I kept seeing you in your nova hover sinus. Hmyeah. Requires efforts, sure.

 

-someone who played them a year

Ok bro, we get it. 

You read until you saw the word ‘hover’ then stopped reading to make this post.

You’ve made that clear.

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7 hours ago, Jiffy_boi said:

Ok bro, we get it. 

You read until you saw the word ‘hover’ then stopped reading to make this post.

You’ve made that clear.

No it's a pile of xxxx about hovers "being OP" but also "needing mad skillz" and "superior map awareness". Typical hovertart propaganda with a thin coating of "but I played wheels too".

My ****, having a good map awareness is good no matter wich movement part you use. If before playing hovers you used to get your **** chomped by a dog every game that's not a hover-specific problem.

I'll stop trashing these people the moment they'll stop thinking they're all part of the 2-3% best players because they can press A and E. Wich apparently isn't for today again.

Edited by Clebardman
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3 minutes ago, Clebardman said:

Typical hovertart propaganda with a thin coating of "but I played wheels too".

You cannot use the arguments from the opposite side and turn them around to make them look pointless.
Instead you should bring your own arguments :D

We hovertards played wheels and all. Did you played hover for a longer time? And if not - why not?  :lol:

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3 minutes ago, _cottton_ said:

We hovertards played wheels and all. Did you played hover for a longer time? And if not - why not?  :lol:

For a year, in CW, because hovers are very obviously OP and CW is about winning, and because Crickets were cheaper than legendaries.
I don't have a superiority complex that makes me think everybody else is a tard, so when I see something OP I expect others to realize it and use it. And guess what people strap their ranged weaps on in CW, in an overwhelming majority? Yeah, hovers.

Edited by Clebardman
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