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Seriously Broken Matchmaker


JohnKeyman
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Describe problem and what you saw I have noticed over the past month that the matchmaker almost intentionally creates two teams where it's already predetermined which team is going to win. The matchmaker does this by collecting really good players, usually with wedge shotguns, dogs and scorpion hovers on one team and usually really bad players (I'm kinda a bad player myself) with really bad builds on the other team. In the first 10-30 seconds of the match the good team annihilates the bad team and the game is over.

I'm probably not the only one noticing this as the more rounds I play in a series and start recognize repeating names on both sides, others do as well, and that's where the self-destruct on game start starts to kick in for many players.
What you expected to see The matchmaker to check players stats, maybe even build "types" and considering these, at least *try* balance the two sides.
Conditions in which error reproduce Play Crossout.
Problem details I have noticed over the past month that the matchmaker almost intentionally creates two teams where it's already predetermined which team is going to win. The matchmaker does this by collecting really good players, usually with wedge shotguns, dogs and scorpion hovers on one team and usually really bad players (I'm kinda a bad player myself) with really bad builds on the other team. In the first 10-30 seconds of the match the good team annihilates the bad team and the game is over.
Frequency of reproduction frequent
Time of bug  

Attaching a screenshot to get an idea how it constantly looks like and why some may find this very frustrating.

 

Crossout-MM-Example.png

Crossout-MM-Example-2.png

Edited by JohnKeyman
Added screenshot as a real example.
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Dude

It's been like that for one year. If you're too good (for exemple win two or three matches in a row and top 3), and/or have one or two fused items, you're gonna get destroyed the next battles.

Spoiler

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It's definitely intentionnal, I think they tried to get a 50/50 mandatory win/lose ratio system, but this ended up beeing the most frustrating thing in the game. And I'm not gonna talk about repeating maps two to three times in a row.

Last summer you could win every match for an hour by beeing decent and maybe having a friend with you, but somehow this was causing rage, maybe players were exploiting some ways to get easy wins. But since they changed the system in september 2020 it went complete frustration and nonsense matchmaking.

Result, I stopped playing PvP completely, I try maybe once each month if I feel like it, but it always end up with constant loss, matches against invincible teams where nobody dies and destroy your team in a minute. I don't think I'm terrible, I am usually top three at least, last man standing or MVP, got decent builds for different PS range, but the game do not like you to be good or win too much.

Every time I talk about it I get the usual "git gud" "your build suck" "play at 14k PS" etc so good luck with that.

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  • 3 weeks later...

So I'm not the only one then. Good to know this has been going on since a long time now.

What I really do not understand is that I have a 2.20 K/D, which is not something many would consider as being a good player. I did end up being in top 3 quite frequently though. But, being punished for that with a team that dies in the first 10 seconds, the enemy team members being "indestructible", etc. is not fair. And this has been going on constantly for the past 2 months now.

It is not fun playing Crossout any more.

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There is problem  with RU players. ... RU developer  doing maatchmaking for RU Aces..
second problem is ****  with balance!!  PS IS ONLY ONE  but this xxxx trash game want compare guns and if you have epic, game give you epic enemy.. IS TOTAL UNFAIR!!
wANT WIN?  PAID  easy mathematic ...  RUS -. no brain, what want?


Im paid usery game block me play on low rank  and i stop farm...  i xxxx  play with premium and farm maximum 500 resource for full day of gaming  bcs ever time LOOSE

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is this bug report for players to entertain themselves our every now and then the developers (or any member of staff) take a look at bug reports too?

Would be nice to get some response with regards to why is this frustrating game mechanics is in place and if there are any future plans to remove/adjust it, in a meaningful way?

 

 

 

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Broken matchmaking is making this game unplayable for me. Its the same ~10 game cycle: ridiculously weak my team -> kinda similar teams but not necessarily good game/win -> maybe 1-2 good games if Im in tryhard mode -> weak enemy team which dies even if I dont do anything and so on... It means that on average I get ~20% of my games "fun" which is  I almost only play CW because of it. It clearly gets a bit better when there is more players online (MM doesnt have to go to the extremes so often) but its still quite bad.

But I dont think devs consider it a problem, they may think having ~50% win rate is fine for most/average players and they dont play their own game to see how bad it really is...

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:08 AM, JohnKeyman said:

I have noticed over the past month that the matchmaker almost intentionally creates two teams where it's already predetermined which team is going to win. The matchmaker does this by collecting really good players, usually with wedge shotguns, dogs and scorpion hovers on one team and usually really bad players (I'm kinda a bad player myself) with really bad builds on the other team. In the first 10-30 seconds of the match the good team annihilates the bad team and the game is over.

YES finally others are stepping up and complaining about same thing that I have been saying for past 2 years! I even made video with extensive testing (I asked several friends to test by doing 20 matches with try hard build and playing best they can and then doing 20 matches playing like total donuts, long story short ... average is 50/50 win/loss ratio). Sometimes you can push it up to 60% wins, but if you do, then you'll get punished really hard for it. Then next 20-30 matches will be exactly how you describe, enemy team gets best players with meta builds and you get totally useless players who can't even get 100 points. I have played this game EVERY DAY for past 3 years, SAME pattern shows every day when I do daily missions. I win too much = I get totally useless team. If I play useless on purpose and do nothing = I get good team and enemies just disappear on their own without even shooting at them. This system DOES EXIST and anyone saying otherwise, has no idea how matchmaking works (I had some brainless haters say this doesn't exist and they show me screenshots of like 30 wins where they play in group of 4 with try-hard meta builds .. just FACEPALM 1000x, what is that even suppose to prove? This has never been about playing in group of 4 with try hard builds, it's about when playing solo or group of 2).

So developers have DESIGNED this to force 50/50 win/loss ratio, but they are not thinking how frustrating it is to anyone in the losing team. you take 1 shot and then you get steamrolled by 4 OP dog builds that are unstoppable (because devs keep nerfing porcs, kapkans and everything else that can counter dogs) and then they put them all in same team, while your team gets totally useless players who can't even get 100 points... 1 double cannon shot can already give you 300 points or more, which means they literally don't even play and matchmaker just knows how to put them in your team.

It's extremely FRUSTRATING and annoying, nobody likes to play unfair matches (apart from those who like to abuse power). and on top of that, we also have this useless group vs group, where a group of 2 players with PS of around 10000, are FORCED to go vs group of 4 with PS 15000 or more. This group vs group has been there since closed beta, because in developers eyes ... it's not fair to have group of players go vs ungrouped .. but what do they know, not like any of the devs even play the game. By "play", i mean grind for missions and go thru the frustration that normal players have to go thru on daily basis.

You can see my 50/50 win/loss ratio video here 

 

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On 10/2/2021 at 10:30 AM, JohnKeyman said:

So I'm not the only one then. Good to know this has been going on since a long time now.

What I really do not understand is that I have a 2.20 K/D, which is not something many would consider as being a good player. I did end up being in top 3 quite frequently though. But, being punished for that with a team that dies in the first 10 seconds, the enemy team members being "indestructible", etc. is not fair. And this has been going on constantly for the past 2 months now.

It is not fun playing Crossout any more.

please don't say K/D. It's "average kills per battle" which also counts assists, but it won't matter. Same punishment applies to all players who manage to win more than 3 battles in row, then matchmaking starts to really punish you. I think most wins I have EVER had when playing solo, was 12-13, it was when Kaiju was OP. As you wasn't able to see kaiju's projectiles and it was instant travel, i was able to take out 4-5 enemies across the map before they even realized what was shooting at them, this was only time I got so many wins when playing solo.

To me it's not even about win or defeat, it's HOW you win or lose. It's so annoying when one team just disappears before you get to even play, it's frustrating and BORING! It's more fun shooting bots in patrol than being a match where one team dies before you get to shoot.

 

On 9/12/2021 at 5:53 PM, _Egon_Spengler_ said:

It's definitely intentionnal, I think they tried to get a 50/50 mandatory win/lose ratio system, but this ended up beeing the most frustrating thing in the game. And I'm not gonna talk about repeating maps two to three times in a row.

yes it is forced 50/50, couple GMs confirmed it. They wished to stay anonymous, so I won't name their names, but they said it's confirmed and intentional. Developers don't understand how FRUSTRATING this is, because they don't play the game themselves.

DEAR DEVELOPERS in order for you to understand how frustrating you have made this game on your players, try to imagine this: "What if your game code that you are working on, only work 50% of the time with random chance?" Would you understand THAT? Would you understand how frustrating it would be if you randomly get punished and your code doesn't work? Because this is what you're doing to your players! and this is why game is dying. I have said it MANY times, lot of my friends have stopped playing because of SAME reason. When I asked why they stopped playing, they all said same thing "because pvp matchmaking is broken" .. by that, they mean HUGE differences in PS and the forced 50/50.

 

On 10/11/2021 at 11:32 AM, JohnKeyman said:

Is this bug report for players to entertain themselves our every now and then the developers (or any member of staff) take a look at bug reports too?

Would be nice to get some response with regards to why is this frustrating game mechanics is in place and if there are any future plans to remove/adjust it, in a meaningful way?

 

 

 

I have offered a solution many times, they need to:

1. REMOVE group vs group
2. REMOVE forced 50/50
3. ADD skill based matchmaking
4. LOWER the PS difference in matches

Skill is calculated based on stats that matter, such as average score per battle (this has to be fine-tuned, as in lower PS scores are lower. In higher PS you can get like 6000 with porcs or other high DPS weapon, while in lower PS 1000 is already a lot). It should also take into account how much damage you deal vs how much you take. Those who just rush in and trade damage, should be considered as lower rank players, because they don't really do anything for team. Even if you're able to damage or take out 1 enemy by rushing, you'll die too, so it's just 7 v 7 and won't help the team.

Also it should matter how many enemies you kapkan and how much damage they take while they are kapkanned and ofcourse blocking damage with barrier should also count as "skill", because it can be very useful for team if you have a barrier build.

This way, all the good players can play vs eachother, while all the bad players are playing vs eachother, this would definetely reduce the amount of frustration on both sides.

As about removing group vs group, here's example -- What would you rather have in your team, if enemy team has group of 4 players:
1. Group of 2 x 2 players with lower PS
2. group of 4 players with even lower PS
3. ungrouped, but similarly skilled and around same PS

so you see, devs are WRONG about grouped players being more effective than ungrouped. Ungrouped players can be just as effective as group, because very often grouped players are just blabbering about weather or whatever and don't even focus on playing. That's why it's important to remove this nonsense group vs group and just add skill based matchmaking.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, skill should NEVER be calculated based on wins or losses, because that means nothing. Skill should be your PERSONAL performance in matches and should have nothing to do with if you win or lose.

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have you considered getting good?

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On 10/19/2021 at 2:52 PM, CIaw said:

have you considered getting good?

Great, there comes the brainless trolls. you must be one of those paid protectors of grindy games to discredit people who actually point out issues you may have not noticed (maybe because the matchmaker always puts you in the always-winning team).

Mate, the problem is that, for example, if by some miracle I get lucky I do 1 or 2 rounds where I have 4 kills and end up MVP, from that point on the matchmaker actually thinks I am good and it's perfectly fine to expect from me that I will constantly get at least 4 kills all matches so the less good players (all 7 of them who gets put on the team) must be able to deal with 2 players and 2 bots. Therefore, the matchmaker messes things up big time. What the matchmaker does not know, that I'm actually not a good player (that's why I mentioned my 2.2 K/D).

So, if you or anyone else thinks it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to believe that it is the responsibility of a single (good or better) player to win the match for all the others, why is there a need for a team setup of 8 vs 8? It would be more transparent to have 1 vs 8 or 2 vs 8.

It does not make sense to be punished by the game for either being good or being lucky a few times.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JohnKeyman said:

Great, there comes the brainless trolls. you must be one of those paid protectors of grindy games to discredit people who actually point out issues you may have not noticed (maybe because the matchmaker always puts you in the always-winning team).

Mate, the problem is that, for example, if by some miracle I get lucky I do 1 or 2 rounds where I have 4 kills and end up MVP, from that point on the matchmaker actually thinks I am good and it's perfectly fine to expect from me that I will constantly get at least 4 kills all matches so the less good players (all 7 of them who gets put on the team) must be able to deal with 2 players and 2 bots. Therefore, the matchmaker messes things up big time. What the matchmaker does not know, that I'm actually not a good player (that's why I mentioned my 2.2 K/D).

So, if you or anyone else thinks it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to believe that it is the responsibility of a single (good or better) player to win the match for all the others, why is there a need for a team setup of 8 vs 8? It would be more transparent to have 1 vs 8 or 2 vs 8.

It does not make sense to be punished by the game for either being good or being lucky a few times.

 

 

you see, your theory doesn't really make sense. why would the game put a 'good' player together with 'bad' players, if the 'algorithm' wants the 'bad' players to win? I understand how this would work if all other players were bots, just change their skill and stuff like that, but having this in a matchmaker with actual players would be paradoxical, since it would put the 'better' players in matches where they're supposed to lose against 'worse' players.

When you toss a coin, it's not going to land heads, then tails, then heads, etc.. If you are a completely statistically average player, you can expect to win a few in a row, then lose. There is no forced 50/50, it's just your brain trying to see patterns where there aren't any. Hell, they even had to change Itunes because people complained the true rng wasn't 'random' enough.

And yes, I do think it's acceptable for 1-2 player(s) to carry a match. Having a 2v8 would make the game too hard, you need those other players as cannonfodder to keep the enemy busy so they don't swarm you. I kill about half the enemy team each match, and don't really notice a difference in team composition. 

892671990_Screenshot(584).thumb.png.6d21

If matchmaking forced 50/50, this would not have been possible.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Claw, its usually not win, loss, win, loss back and forth that consistently. it sometimes it's for example: 6 wins, 5 losses, 7 wins, 4 losses, 2 wins, 3 losses something like that. It's not going to be exactly 50/50 because of external factors such as players disconnecting/leaving matches, trolls griefing and/or sabotaging match to name to good examples that could throw off the systems intended results. I also theorize that the algorithms are programmed too not be too obvious when making matches, but take this one with a grain of salt. Also, When the matchmaking does go against you it could also happen in streaks, meaning the you might get cursed with a losing streak with the worst players imaginable for at or around 10 matches in a row than get given at or around 10 matches of easy wins. Btw speaking of easy wins, the same things happens with a good portion of wins since the enemy disappears instantly which is why sometimes even the wins don't really feel like actual wins since you know the algorithm in just handing some of those wins to you to make up for the forced losses.

I hope this shows you why this does exist.

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On 10/23/2021 at 4:04 PM, CIaw said:

you see, your theory doesn't really make sense. why would the game put a 'good' player together with 'bad' players, if the 'algorithm' wants the 'bad' players to win? I understand how this would work if all other players were bots, just change their skill and stuff like that, but having this in a matchmaker with actual players would be paradoxical, since it would put the 'better' players in matches where they're supposed to lose against 'worse' players.

When you toss a coin, it's not going to land heads, then tails, then heads, etc.. If you are a completely statistically average player, you can expect to win a few in a row, then lose. There is no forced 50/50, it's just your brain trying to see patterns where there aren't any. Hell, they even had to change Itunes because people complained the true rng wasn't 'random' enough.

And yes, I do think it's acceptable for 1-2 player(s) to carry a match. Having a 2v8 would make the game too hard, you need those other players as cannonfodder to keep the enemy busy so they don't swarm you. I kill about half the enemy team each match, and don't really notice a difference in team composition. 

892671990_Screenshot(584).thumb.png.6d21

If matchmaking forced 50/50, this would not have been possible.

Claw, its usually not win, loss, win, loss back and forth that consistently. it sometimes it's for example: 6 wins, 5 losses, 7 wins, 4 losses, 2 wins, 3 losses something like that. It's not going to be exactly 50/50 because of external factors such as players disconnecting/leaving matches, trolls griefing and/or sabotaging match to name to good examples that could throw off the systems intended results. I also theorize that the algorithms are programmed too not be too obvious when making matches, but take this one with a grain of salt. Also, When the matchmaking does go against you it could also happen in streaks, meaning the you might get cursed with a losing streak with the worst players imaginable for at or around 10 matches in a row than get given at or around 10 matches of easy wins. Btw speaking of easy wins, the same things happens with a good portion of wins since the enemy disappears instantly which is why sometimes even the wins don't really feel like actual wins since you know the algorithm in just handing some of those wins to you to make up for the forced losses.

I hope this shows you why this does exist.

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8 hours ago, KillSwitch1738 said:

meaning the you might get cursed with a losing streak with the worst players imaginable for at or around 10 matches in a row than get given at or around 10 matches of easy wins.

yeah, I get that theory, but I don't get how that's supposed to work for those bad players, since the algorithm should be putting those on the winning team. Your theory would work if every single other player is a bot, not when they are also actual players, who would have their own matchmakers. 

Your theory is paradoxical, unless it only applies to you, and the rest of all players' matchmaking is defined by your actions. Example: I play well, so the 'algorithm' will try to make me lose. It will do so, by putting me in a team together with bad players, who lose often. This would be fine, but only if the matchmaker solely bases its choices on my performance. Else, the 'algorithm' would try to make those bad players win, while trying to make me lose at the same time. It literally can not do that.

As for those random disconnects at the beginning of a match, I encounter those often enough on my team, yet still steamroll the enemy.

Think about it, even if Targem would want to implement such an advanced algorithm, they just do not have the resources/skilled devs available to do so. 

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On 11/25/2021 at 7:21 AM, CIaw said:

yeah, I get that theory, but I don't get how that's supposed to work for those bad players, since the algorithm should be putting those on the winning team. Your theory would work if every single other player is a bot, not when they are also actual players, who would have their own matchmakers. 

Your theory is paradoxical, unless it only applies to you, and the rest of all players' matchmaking is defined by your actions. Example: I play well, so the 'algorithm' will try to make me lose. It will do so, by putting me in a team together with bad players, who lose often. This would be fine, but only if the matchmaker solely bases its choices on my performance. Else, the 'algorithm' would try to make those bad players win, while trying to make me lose at the same time. It literally can not do that.

As for those random disconnects at the beginning of a match, I encounter those often enough on my team, yet still steamroll the enemy.

Think about it, even if Targem would want to implement such an advanced algorithm, they just do not have the resources/skilled devs available to do so. 

Your argument assumes that i said "50/50 match making applies with 100% accuracy" Wich i did not say. I said "it's not going to be 100% accurate".

Sometimes you get let's say an abnormal number of easy wins because the algorithm is also rigged to spoon feed wins bad players by putting them in a team with 1 or more good players against an enemy team that put together with crappy players. From your perspective you're basically just carrying the players on your team who struggle or can't carry themselves at all but don't let this fool you because the system still knows about your matches and will indeed later on seek to screw you over. Crossout might not have that big of a player base but there definitely enough globally so that there's always going to be the bad players that it will put with you and very good ones that it'll put plenty of in enemy team to make you lose. It can work the other way around to. This is the biggest reason why it's not perfectly even between win/lose. You have to broaden your perspective from just yourself as 1 individual to the player base as a hole since this effect everybody.

Also, the super computers that run games like this are capable of thousands upon thousands of calculations per second to achieve a system like this.

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