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[Mass testing] Balance changes of the update 0.13.0. + and -


TheLittleSam
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ATTENTION! The topic is created to gather all the constructive feedback regarding the changes and new features in progress. Please, leave your feedback only after you've tested the changes on the special test server. All the posts that are not made in accordance with the example below will be deleted!

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These are the features I like the most:

  • .... (in brief)
  • ....
  • ....

These are the features that I don't like:

  • ....., because...
  • ....., because...

Conclusion: (brief constructive conclusion that sums up your overall experience)

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  • TheLittleSam changed the title to [Mass testing] Balance changes of the update 0.13.0. + and -

All changes are mostly fine except the nerf of Mammoths:

Nerfing their reload speed is a bad and illogical idea. Currently, they have the same DPS as Fatmans. Obviously, it doesn't have to be lower if they are legendary cannons. Their reload speed actually expected a buff, not the nerf.

Deeper analysis after using Mammoths on builds with non-meta movement types: if the idea to nerf Mammoths came from existence of hover Mammoths, then the issue should be solved with hovers instead of changing all weapons around hovers, because it's going to ruin the rest of the game and make the weapons even more unusable for anything else than hovers.

For example, Mammoths are already nearly unplayable when installed on heavy track builds. In fact, an 8000 PS vehicle with epic Triggers can easily melt off Mammoths on a 15000 PS build with tracks because it has no mobility and Mammoths provide no sufficient DPS to win a battle against the opponent of an almost twice lower PS. Secondly, the weight of tracks, Mammoths and modules alone doesn't allow to reach the 3000 HP checkpoint on such supposedly most heavy builds (for comparison, this HP value can be reached even on a fused Griffon cabin with small tracks and shotguns, despite it's a light cabin, or on many other medium cabins), which obviously isn't insufficient for such heavy builds with the worst agility that heavy tracks provide (for instance, Arbiters with Aurora take 5-7 seconds to drain that HP, what leaves the time for Mammoths to reload only once). The only way to cross this HP line for builds with Mammoths and heavy tracks is to fuse items for mass-related bonuses, but shortly speaking, there is no experience of being a tough tank with Mammoths nor having sufficient DPS. Combining this with any upcoming nerfs may only further decrease the usability of Mammoths on builds with other movement types.

In addition, not only the DPS of Mammoths leaves a lot to be desired, but an improvement to their rotation speed and accuracy could be helpful as well, as they tend to miss even at point blank range due to the spread of a Retcher. When anyone using shotguns flanks a non-hover Mammoth build, it's a matter of seconds until the cannons are gone, and it's incredibly frustrating when the cannons take eternity to finally finish rotating and the only shot that they make still misses the target which was standing at point blank. If players are encouraged to use Mammoths on something else than highly mobile and omnidirectional chassis like hovers (or Bigrams), then their rotation speed must be sufficient for the non-omnidirectional chassis, otherwise the weapon is tied to only one side. If you can't use the rotational weapon on tracks and obviously can't use the non-rotational, then what are you supposed to use on tracks at all?

Lastly, Mammoths actually don't work very well against highly spaced armor. Currently, even epic Spectres are able to beat Mammoths at point blank range when properly hidden deep within the spaced armor, as Mammoths simply do not have enough time with their long reload speed to break through the long rows of parts before they are shot off. Fighting Tackler or Vindicator spider builds is even more meaningless. Solution to this could be reviewing the idea of decreasing the size of all cannon shells as well. If not, an alternative option could be improving the ability for cannon shells to deal directional damage further from their initial collision point or increasing their overall explosion radius. If none of this is planned, then decreasing the reload speed of Mammoths which already do not provide sufficient DPS is the last thing anyone would want to do. Their reload speed actually needs a buff.

Edited by The_Doomsday
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These are the features I like the most:

  • Love punishers put to 30 shots, makes perk more worthwhile
  • Threshers feel even better now and planning longer shots is easier
  • Agree with the annihilator nerf, drones were too tanky beforehand

These are the features that I don't like:

  •  

Conclusion:  This time around i think the balance changes for everything look good, no features that i don't like

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These are the features that I don't like:

Nerf:   “Skinner”  "Now the harpoon will hold the enemy car for only 4 seconds."

Conclusion:  Unfortunately the era of slam-dunk supremacy has ended because it lasts at least 7-8 seconds. 
                       Goodbye to some fun moments of bedlam game. (booster kills still work in 4s, so the nerf is useless or targeted)
Solution:       Wait, if they changed the rules of this mod(bedlam), as they promised in the past, there would be another chance to revive the spirits of greatness and happiness among wastelanders. (at least for some of them) another solution would be to make it last at least 10s or we lose from the game experience.

Thankyou.

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Day 2: 

These are the features I like the most:

  • The map changes to Founder's canyon are nice. The new paths don't cater to mindless rushers and still allow players to make chokepoints.
  • The kapkan changes are great. This should help out massively with heavy builds when you're dealing with someone using kapkans offensively.
  • .

These are the features I'm ambient on:

  • The thresher buff makes them feel better but not great. Their role as a weapon isn't really suited to long range fighting where spread is an issue.
  • .

These are the features that I don't like:

  • The prosecutor perk buff is uncalled. Reasons why below:

1678600858_screenshot-210918-121037(2924

1891987438_screenshot-210918-121041(2924

The executioner does barely any extra damage over the prosecutor, will have a PS higher by 425 PS (So a triple of each build will have a 1275 PS difference.) while the prosecutor gets the executioner perk at at a lower PS, reload time, and weight. Either buff the executioner's perk to 3 pins of penetration so it's not weaker than the prosecutor (As the executioner would become pointless to run.) or don't buff the prosecutor perk (Such as instead making a new perk for the prosecutor that isn't the same as the executioner's but weaker so it's perk is actually useful in battles.).

  • The map changes to Bridge are going to ruin the map. Rushers cannot mindlessly rush on bridge in it's current iteration because there are 3 paths to take on either side, the bridge, the ramp next to the bridge, and flanking hard around the hill. Add a second direct way from spawn to rush the bridge path and you start catering to mindless rushers. Lower the hills and you make ranged builds less able to use their ranged weapons in a ranged manner.
  • The skinner changes are going to make a niche weapon even more niche. Why has the skinner suddenly found itself the target of a nerf?
  • .

Conclusion:  Both good and bad, roughly equal.

Day 3: 

These are the features I like the most:

  • .

These are the features I'm ambient on:

  • The punisher buff is nice but not absolutely necessary either. If anything this might lead to the punisher becoming as powerful as the breaker.
  • The mammoth nerf is going to be so minor that it's not noticed, there is literally no reason to do it.

These are the features that I don't like:

  • The caucasus nerf is frankly crippling. The caucasus is already an underperforming weapon, making it even worse is just going to cause then more problems.
  • The yongwang perk nerf is disappointing. The nature of the weapon is that of the Kaiju's, a single weapon that you can run. Limiting the perk to 95% when 6 * 15 = 90 and thus functionally limiting the number of modules to max out damage output to 6 is not deserved.

Conclusion: 

Overall: Cool your heels on most of the nerfs. The kapkan nerf is justified and a good nerf. That map changes for bridge should be aborted and the current version kept over any new versions of the map. Abort the prosecutor buff as well, the executioner hasn't gotten enough love to make it worth using if the perk buff goes through without buffs of it's own.

Edited by SIGMA920
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These are the features I like the most:

  • none
  • Because they all appear to be reactionary

These are the features that I don't like:

  • none
  • Because they all appear reactionary

Conclusion: as per normal these changes appear to be reactionary, 

  1. how much of the statistical Data  for the things getting changed are Fused, or used by players with Co-driver, build & massive experience vs new player who doesn't? (eg parts like Spitfire are easy to build around, build with, defend, cheap, optimized fusion of (free stabilizers), etc
  2.  It appears as though Weapons are just universally changed even though ONLY hover, or Goliath (etc) builds running that weapon causing changes to be made that affect  everyone -
    is the causing  the Stats & Data to be Distorted  or Skewed  ...  Hovers continue to cause issues with all other associated weapons used on them compared to non-hovers, this alone significantly affects all related buffs/nerfs when Hovers are factored in. same goes for many favored builds, Bigram Frontal guns, Goliath Goblins, Shotgun Wedges etc
  3. Does the Data have a weighted dataset? with Mobility, Cab, Fusion, Player experience (see badges/patches/Battle count...) etc if these things are not considered then the data is flawed.
  4. Players use what works, people get stuck choosing "meta" & use that, the more that use that formula the more that info is in the Stats, if everyone used scorps the scorps would be too strong because they killed everyone. this can clearly be seen in the game, & varies with PS, more experienced (active) players are aware of what works (mode & PS) where & use that to their benefit. (& the detriment of newer players or those who have not used that gear)

    -  let's take Kapkan or Cloak as examples we all have access to Hard counters to these & yet how often do you see the majority (any) use Argus or Verifier, eg a simple falcon can ruin a kapkan/king minelayer builds day, the Dev's have provided the tools (mine detection on Doppler/Maxwell, Verifier) or tire tracks, Predator effects with detector etc & yet many don't use the map, take ONLY weapons & chase maximising DPS instead of building a complete combat build, if they don't have Detector or radar they blame the team for not backing them up, or complain about OP kapkan or Ban cloak etc,

    - Even my retcher raid build has Doppler & an Argus - it saves so much time not having to look for that last raider, spot incoming raiders, drive through mines or past missile turrets I hardly ever have to use Repair kits unless teamwork is non-existent & times are significantly reduced

    - Those Brawls with Pre-made Random builds are great for this reason eg players hate Porcs & complain they are OP until they get to use them & realize they are not accurate, they take effort to use without killing oneself etc (this applies to all gear with steep learning curve, requiring effort & skill & time to get right)
     
  5. so much of this games strengths are missed opportunities because players who could counter something that will cause them (their teams) issues deliberately avoid taking responsibility in battle, they take it so seriously, they forget to have fun. We keep seeing changes based on players choosing the easy or effective way through, resulting in buffs for the obscure under used gear & the OP (OVER-PLAYED) gear getting nerfed because it's over represented in the data
Edited by SpeedLocked_NZ
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These are the features I like the most:

  • Cuckpkan changes: The Kapkan is the single most toxic piece of equipment in the entire game, and that is saying something. As much as I dislike getting melee'd or wedged, a pack exclusive item shouldn't be the driving force behind countering this. The change I like the most is the change that would let heavy builds escape from theme more easily. However, I must stress out that this is a change you had already once made, it was stated in the patch notes, and it worked perfectly fine. But then you made a Stealth change without any mention in the patch notes that made it much harder to escape for heavy builds. Stopping a heavy vehicle that takes 20 seconds to get to maximum speed for 10 seconds with a single kapkan is just insulting. I hope such stealth changes to the Kapkan won't happen again.
  • Annihilator changes: Speaking of toxic items, the Annihilator comes in at second place and I regard everything bad that happens to it as a good change for the game. However, a more impactful change would be removing the drone's ability to dodge projectiles at lightning fast speed, which makes countering it a nightmare when using anything other than machineguns.
  • Low PS hover changes: This is a relatively minor change, but I'm looking forward to it anyways. But you should also focus on the effectiveness of mid PS hovers with the Nova Cabins, and perhaps Nova Hovers in general, their effectiveness seems to be more troublesome than that of other hovers.

These are the features that I don't like:

  • Mammoth reload speed nerf: I see this nerf as a rather unnecessary change. Seems like this would be a nerf reflecting the recent rise in hovers with Mammoths - which surely increase the effectiveness of Mammoths in your statistics. The second heaviest weapons in the game should have absolutely NO place being used on hovers - you should consider addressing this issue first before punishing players using Mammoths on other movement parts.

Regarding the Skinner harpoon changes: I agree that the current situation with the Skinner gets out of hand at times, especially if a really heavy build gets caught (and often by a much lighter vehicle or even a hover) and can't do anything about it. But what if you made the Skinner's rope/cable much easier to snap (not like kapkan, but more like the easy to snap Jubokko), but deal some damage to the attached parts instead, as the tip of the harpoon gets 'torn out' from the victim? This could even be a cool idea for a separate harpoon weapon - one that would be made out to tear out wheels and pieces of armour from vehicles 'Mad Max' style!

Conclusion: As for the rest of the changes, I see them as good changes for the game in general, looking forward to the next update!

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These are the features I like:

  • annihilator drone nerf: these buggers are tough(they take at least 100 damage each), hit hard and slow you down, while the carrier has sodded off somewhere. but has some has said, the fact that it moves around is very annoying at times.
  • MG punisher: lowering the requirement to activate the perk makes it feel better, now if you can do something to aspects that will be good as well.

features that I'm on the fence on:

  • hover acceleration nerf: now finally the main issue of the hover has been addressed, although I feel that it and the PS increase combined is a bit overkill. Also if I am right, it is not actually capping the acceleration but rather a blanket nerf, which means that large muti-hover setups also ended up being slower in my limited tests
  • prosecutor penetration buff: while in theory this is a good one, it also means that if this goes though, it will render executioner 88mm obsolete, as both now have the exact same penetration, but the executioner is much bigger target for only 95 more HP, slightly more damage, heavier and much higher in PS, when you can have the prosecutor for only a small damage loss but a much smaller target, lower PS and greater base rate of fire.

features I don't like:

  • mammoth reload speed nerf: it came completely out from nowhere, as in my experience with live server mammoths, they feel strong, but they can also be defeated if you know what you are doing, not to mention mammoth builds cab HP usually are lower in comparison to similar heavy builds. So unless there is some mammoth build that I am not aware that makes them ridiculously strong, this nerf is unwarranted, as you need to look at what is being used on, because on a land vehicle it is balanced, it only performs well if you are putting in effort to do so. Also I think the mammoth bot with perfect accuracy and trajectory prediction might also be skewing your information as well if you are somehow factoring bots into it. Or you are just trying to make mastodon look more appealing which is more scummy by telling us that mammoth is somehow over-performing.
  • Skinner change: The proposed change practically killed skinner, as 4s is too short to even harpoon a tall vehicle, then attempt to flip said vehicle, as the harpoon will release in the middle of attempting to tip target vehicle. A better change would be something similar to phoenix, nests, as in you and the allies can shoot the harpoon off instead. I was in fact wondering why that system was not given to the skinner harpoon in the first place in fact
Edited by howardxu23
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These are the features I like the most:

  • .... hover nerf : To be honest, I don't know how many times the nerf was announced and canceled. Hopefully it will be nerfed this time.
  • .... kapkan nerf : Kapkan was nerfed last time, and even heavy cars can no longer get out of Kapkan. I hope it works this time as well.

These are the features that I don't like:

  • ..... Caucasus nerf: You can no longer hit targets with even a little movement. Oppressor and forced.
  • .....skinner nerf : Too much. Infinite time is also op, but 4 seconds removes the meaning of a weapon.

Conclusion : This balance change is good. This game is a car game. However, the game became unreasonable with the appearance of hover. In order for Melee to kill a hover, she needs to build an inefficient build. If you don't have a hover, you'll have to use the bumper to make a mouth (to push the hover). When it is destroyed, it becomes impossible to kill the hover. How about lowering the hover height so that the melee doesn't form an inefficient shape?

Edited by _SAL_
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These are the things I like:

The Punisher buff is necessary.  It is not right that Punishers are overshadowed by Arbiters, Helios, Imps, and Cyclones.  Also, the Toadfish buff is excellent, as Toadfish has extreme weaknesses and needs to be a rewarding weapon.

The Yongwang Nerf is excellent.  The Yongwang used to have unlimited stacking on its perk.  This led to a frustrating clan wars experience facing Yongwang Levis with 700 percent damage increase.

These are the things I don't like:

Icarus VII should not be nerfed.  The movement part is not overpowered at high power score, and an acceleration reduction will severely impact heavy end game builds.  Icarus VII can be removed from low powerscore lobbies by increasing its power score.  Also, the severe nerf to Kapkans will severely effect the effectiveness of hovers.  Kapkans protect hovers and spiders against close range builds.  Hovers should not be nerfed alongside Kapkans in the same patch as it may lead to unintended consequences of an extremely unbalanced end game.


The Mammoth nerf is not necessary.  Mammoth is a good and not great cannon.  It has already suffered from the change of the Colossus perk.  

 

Edited by DarthStall
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Hover nerf  does not make any sense.  Increase the power score of the hover, but stop nerfing it.   Movement parts between wheels/bigrams/hovers are actually in a balanced state.  Just increase power score if there is an issue with lower level PVP match ups.  

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On 9/18/2021 at 3:05 PM, The_Doomsday said:

All changes are mostly fine except the nerf of Mammoths:

Nerfing their reload speed is a bad and illogical idea. Currently, they have the same DPS as Fatmans. Obviously, it doesn't have to be lower if they are legendary cannons. Their reload speed actually expected a buff, not the nerf.

Deeper analysis after using Mammoths on builds with non-meta movement types: if the idea to nerf Mammoths came from existence of hover Mammoths, then the issue should be solved with hovers instead of changing all weapons around hovers, because it's going to ruin the rest of the game and make the weapons even more unusable for anything else than hovers.

For example, Mammoths are already nearly unplayable when installed on heavy track builds. In fact, an 8000 PS vehicle with epic Triggers can easily melt off Mammoths on a 15000 PS build with tracks because it has no mobility and Mammoths provide no sufficient DPS to win a battle against the opponent of an almost twice lower PS. Secondly, the weight of tracks, Mammoths and modules alone doesn't allow to reach the 3000 HP checkpoint on such supposedly most heavy builds (for comparison, this HP value can be reached even on a fused Griffon cabin with small tracks and shotguns, despite it's a light cabin, or on many other medium cabins), which obviously isn't insufficient for such heavy builds with the worst agility that heavy tracks provide (for instance, Arbiters with Aurora take 5-7 seconds to drain that HP, what leaves the time for Mammoths to reload only once). The only way to cross this HP line for builds with Mammoths and heavy tracks is to fuse items for mass-related bonuses, but shortly speaking, there is no experience of being a tough tank with Mammoths nor having sufficient DPS. Combining this with any upcoming nerfs may only further decrease the usability of Mammoths on builds with other movement types.

In addition, not only the DPS of Mammoths leaves a lot to be desired, but an improvement to their rotation speed and accuracy could be helpful as well, as they tend to miss even at point blank range due to the spread of a Retcher. When anyone using shotguns flanks a non-hover Mammoth build, it's a matter of seconds until the cannons are gone, and it's incredibly frustrating when the cannons finally finish rotating (after they've taken eternity) but the only shot that they make still misses the target which was standing at point blank. If players are encouraged to use Mammoths on something else than highly mobile and omnidirectional chassis like hovers (or Bigrams), then their rotation speed must be sufficient for the non-omnidirectional chassis, otherwise the weapon is tied to only one side. If you can't use the rotational weapon on tracks and obviously can't use the non-rotational, then what are you supposed to use on tracks at all?

Lastly, Mammoths actually don't work very well against highly spaced armor. Currently, even epic Spectres are able to beat Mammoths at point blank range when properly hidden deep within the spaced armor, as Mammoths simply do not have enough time with their long reload speed to break through the long rows of parts before they are shot off. Fighting Tackler or Vindicator spider builds is even more meaningless. Solution to this could be reviewing the idea of decreasing the size of all cannon shells as well. If not, an alternative option could be improving the ability for cannon shells to deal directional damage further from their initial collision point or increasing their overall explosion radius. If none of this is planned, then decreasing the reload speed of Mammoths which already do not provide sufficient DPS is the last thing anyone would want to do. Their reload speed actually needs a buff.

I completely agree with you, I could not have said better,

to overcome this nerf that the devs offer,

it is mandatory to have the mamoth fuzed, those which were craftable during the event: projectile mass, reloading and velocity , I have them and I love them

otherwise the canons will be unusable beyond 11k ps

instead of nerfing mamoths, devs better nerfing hovers or stonedeaf co-pilot

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17 hours ago, _Lemmy44_ said:

These are the features that I don't like:

  • Mammoth reload speed nerf: I see this nerf as a rather unnecessary change. Seems like this would be a nerf reflecting the recent rise in hovers with Mammoths - which surely increase the effectiveness of Mammoths in your statistics. The second heaviest weapons in the game should have absolutely NO place being used on hovers - you should consider addressing this issue first before punishing players using Mammoths on other movement parts.

 

mamoth players play as hovers for 2 reasons:

1-to quickly escape from the melee with the dogs

2-to level the speed of rotation of the barrel, because yes the hovers allow to accelerate the rotation of the barrel because of the easy rotation of the hover build

the problem does not come from the mamoths but from the hovers

and mamoths like all weapons, have their places in hovers

instead of nerfing mamoths, devs better nerfing hovers or stonedeaf co-pilot

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+

Annihilator drones deserve a heavier nerf. Unlike any other weapon they get above their target and directly target cabs ignoring all armor on the build. They are by far one of the most frustrating things to fight as they chip away hp. Can you please make them stop targeting cabs all the time...

Most stuff looks alright.

?

Kapkan. On one hand I love how annoying they are, on the other I hate how annoying they are. I'm indifferent to changes.

-

Mammoth nerfs are incredibly unnecessary. Stop balancing stuff around hovers for the love of God.

Same for the Yongwang. Except its being nerfed because a newly added cab made it too efficient. Why are you nerfing the gun. Not everyone runs deadman cabs with it. Change the bloody cab that caused the problem instead. Maybe its granted reload perk should be based on energy used by weapons instead of the number of weapons.

Then we have the skinner. Why. Just why. Its an incredibly situational weapon that can be strong in those situations. But limiting it to 4 seconds??? when it gets itself into those times where works well is going to flat out neuter any reason to run it. 

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