Recommanded balance changes

Discussion
#1

There is a big problem in crossout that always been there : Big and rotational weapons must be used as frontal weapons with a lot of armor around them to not loose them too quickly. By this logic, too big weapons with low durability and options to protect them are just never used (or too weak) in Players versus player missions. This concern (but not limited to) : Spike, Cyclone, Retcher, Toadfish, Jormungandr, Nidhogg, Pulsar, Quasar, Yaogai, Jubokko, Caucasus, Whirl, Arothron

To fix this issue, we can :

  1. Reduce their size (best solution for Spike, Cyclone, Toadfish, Nidhogg, Jormungandr, Arothron, Yaogai, Jubokko,Thyrsus)
  2. Increase their durability (Best for Retcher, Caucasus, Whirl)
  3. Increase their efficiency to compensate, wich mean increasing damage or reload time (Best for Pulsar, Quasar, Thyrsus)

BALANCE CHANGES SUGGESTIONS :

---------- WEAPONS CHANGES ----------

SPIKE, TOADFISH : Model Size significantly reduced
(Those weapons are too big and weak, and loosing one of them is too punishing. With a decent size reduction we can cover them better and they will take less damage)

CYCLONES : Model Size reduced. (Same problem : Too big, loosing them too quickly. Even with the recent changes, the weapon still feel too weak to be used.)

NIDHOGG, JORMUNGANDR, AROTHRON : Model Size reduced (Too big, other small shotguns are always better (hammerfall, breaker…)

WHIRL : Model size reduced OR durability increased

RETCHER : Durability increased

CAUCASUS : Durability increased

YAOGAI, JUBOKKO : Model size reduced

QUASAR, PULSAR, ASSEMBLER : Damage increase (Those weapons are under-performing for their rarity while also suffering from their big size. They really need more damage output.)

CORVO : Damage increased by 15% (The weapon is not effective enough and show too low popularity)

HARVESTER : Require shape changes and durability improvements. (The latest changes to harvester has been decreasing it’s efficiency instead of increasing. We understand the idea of making it less depending on perk, but the weapon still require an option to slow down the enemy to actually hit fast targets wich are tesla emitters, and the perk change has been decreasing it’s efficiency when running those tesla weapons. But the best solution for the weapon remain to change the model and removing the non-damaging part that often make the blades not damaging the enemy, wich will make the weapon remain in contact more often, wich will use the new bonus perk way better that way.)

THYRSUS : Damage increased by 30%, reload speed increased by 10%. (OR : Reduce model size and reduce energy from 11 pts to 6 pts, then reduce damage by 15%)

---------- CABIN CHANGES ----------

BLIGHT cabin : Active perk time reduced from 8s to 4s. (The efficiency of the bonus is too strong when used with Firebug, Draco, wich are overused and ruining experience in clan wars. Reducing it’s active time will fix the problem while not impacting other weapons that can use the bonus.)

MASTER : Removed cooldown time (The cabin show very low effifiency in battle due to too long bonus activation, with another 10 seconds to wait for another activation. The cabin is already heating while being activated, and not helping a lot in combat to keep the weapons safe due to low recovery ratio. Removing the cooldown will help performing better.)

MACHINIST : Durability bonus of weapons increased from 10% to 15% for each 1000 points of durability. Maximum durabilty bonus increased from 35% to 60%. (This cabin show very low efficiency and popularity. The bonus is not strong enough to compete with other heavy cabins)

YOKOZUNA : Bonus recharge time reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds. (The bonus is just a speed and power boost. The recharge time is too long to make the cabin performing good enough)

NOVA : Shield durability increased by 15% (The shield is too weak, even if it can comeback faster after being destroyed)

JANNABI : Bonus remain active for 2 second after drifting. (The bonus is too hard to use in combat. Making it remaining after activation will improve it’s efficiency)

---------- HARDWARE CHANGES ---------

AEGIS-PRIME : Shield durability increased by 10%, cooldown reduced by 10%, Shield radius increased by 20% (The module still show low efficiency and popularity even after the energy reduction. The shield radius is too small to protect larger vehicle, the shield does not absorb enough damage, and many build cannot afford sacrifice other harware/weapons for it’s current efficiency)

Note : If you agree with those changes, or at least some of them, you can copy this and send it to the suggestion page for devs to make it happen faster. Here is the link : Suggestion for Crossout future development

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#2

I find this a false premise. These weapons do not need frontally mounted, many viable builds do not mount them in the front.

Again, I do not agree with this premise. I see most of these weapons regularly in player v player missions.

That does mean I agree with some of the changes, just not the premise for logic. Logic requires the basic premise to be true. (or perceived as true)

100% agreement.

Cyclones need a trade off for their high fire rate and explosive component. I feel they are in a good spot right now. Fairly balanced for XO.

I can agree with this.

This is fine if we also reduce impulse. Otherwise, that is a fair trade off. A better change would be to accuracy imo.

Glass cannon, Retchers demolish builds quickly, there must be a trade off. I would rather see a model size reduction than an increase in durability.

No EZ mode weapon needs buffed, they need removed from the game.

Yaogai does not need a buff, it needs a nerf. I agree with Jubokko model reduction.

100% agreement.

I tear people up with them. Damage is good. They could use a durability buff of 20-40%.

I am not sure what changes it needs, but I agree I do always use a flash with mine. Always.

No change is needed. Check the thread about Thyrsus sucking and how quickly I changed my opinion on it with the right combination. This weapon went from being zero to hero in my book. It can tear builds apart in seconds.

No. Blight is used with builds that require aiming also. 4 second window is to short.

With this change, it would need to be limited to no more than X uses per game.

They just nerfed this because it was too powerful even though no one was complaining. Highly unlikely your perception matches internal numbers.

That would make it an “activate as soon as off cd” instead of the intended “activate in X situations”.

#3

I agree that Nidhoggs, Jorms Assemblers and Pulsars need a durability boost and that Pulsars need a damage boost. I think the Kronos cab might really help Nidhogg and Jorm builds but we will see.

I haven’t played Pulsars since the Perk change but I have a friend who does, and the shots still look weak, even with Hertz. My battlepass Waltzs hit much harder than Pulsars and reload much faster with better bullet speed and harder to see projectiles.

My Waltzs are the fused BP ones, but still. Pulsars have nothing going for them.

1 Like
#4

I wrote this thread thinking mainly about clan war, wich is the base of competitive crossout. If you go in clan war with a build with exposed and weak weapons, you get degun in seconds. In there, enemies want to degun you or kill you as fast as possible then switch target. If you go there, with a build with cyclones exposed like the bot we used to find in battles, or spike, or toadfish, or niddhog, whatever, you see the point, you’ll say good bye to your weapons really quick, in this meta where people use scorps, machineguns, shotguns, high-degun potential weapons.

The ONLY viable builds that can afford to let their guns exposed are : Scorps, typhoon/tsunami, big cannons like mastodon/mammoth, arbiter bananas, and maybe fatman and elephant in pvp battles. That’s a really small list compared to all weapons we have.

To me, if a build cannot be played in clan war competitively, then it’s underpowered and need buff. (While i totaly understand the rarity system and that some epic weapon will always feel weaker than higher tier weapons, but they at least deserve their right to play at lower ranks in clan wars without lead to unfair matches and quick looses)

They decided to implement this weapon. Every weapon deserve love. And it’s not a EZ mode weapon, take recoil and think about it, what is easy when you cant aim anything else than the enemy cabin ? Let’s say the enemy got a heavy build but weak guns on it ? Well you cant degun it and will take ages to kill it. You cant aim for weapons, and you have to go through all enemy armor to get to the cabin. It’s only “good” against weak hovers with low health.

It sucks. If a weapon MUST be used with a very specific build, by putting an adapter with it (that you need to hide so it’s just here to boost reload speed), and having no space for any other hardware, it’s just stupid.

You want to activate as soon as off cd as soon as you can and need always, so you get to use it next time faster. So even with 30 seconds it’s same shit. 30 seconds off, is 30 seconds of another heavy cabin being activated way more frequently. So yeah.

If you need more than 4 seconds to aim with incinerators, artillery and tempura then you are in big trouble and loosing so much time. Well, let’s say we round it at 5 seconds for people that have hard time aiming with artillery, wich sometimes can be tricky i can accept that. (But you can just wait you are ready to shot then press the cabin perk button, why does it matter? ) But firedogs are overpowered due to blight cabin and this need to change.

I dont answer to fight with your opinions and i’m glad you did answer with each topics but just wanted to give out some more lights, thanks anyway.

2 Likes
#5

I never said you don’t have to armor your weapons. That is an assumption.
I stated there are other ways to build that still work.
For example: Pancake, Channeled and Bannana builds are all viable.
Not every weapon and combination is supposed to work in CW.

No, not every weapon should be viable in CW. That is just silly.

It takes aiming out of a game built around aiming. EZ mode.

META will always be a real thing in competitive play.

Which is it? You are not going to win in CW if you do not use specific combinations. Any player deserves to rack up losses using caucus in CW.

Apparently you fire both off one trigger. Bad play is bad play regardless of cabin perks. (am I assuming correctly?)

Same. I carefully thought about each suggestion, the ones I thought were good, I stated so. I also stated why the ones that were not good, were not good. Of course, it is all opinion and varies depending on platform.

#6

I was a little confused about some of these until you clarified in your subsequent comment that you were basing this on their performance in Clan Wars.

I think it’s pretty clear that most players don’t do clan wars. Modifying weapons to cater to Clan Wars players probably wouldn’t make much sense. I don’t mean that to dismiss Clan Wars players, So hear me out. In other threads, we have discussed how some weapons only shine at certain powerscores. Clan Wars, until the new system hits, is exclusively high power score. Very high powerscore. To adjust all the weapons to fit into that powerscore bracket would ignore all the players who have no interest in playing very high power score builds or who cannot because they don’t have the parts.

A huge part of the fun of this game for me is learning all the tricks to making good builds. A good example is the little trick using a mine layer, flywheel, and a certain cabin to turn any cannon into a nearly constantly firing autocannon. LOL

Another huge part of the fun is learning how to use certain weapons to make them good. This game has plenty of weapons that seem to suck when you first play them, but once you learn their idiosyncrasies and how to use them to your advantage, they become great. The Assembler is me favorite example of this. At first, it seems hard to use , huge, and fragile. Once you learn how to time the shots , it becomes a kill stealing and weapon stripping monster. I wouldn’t slap it on anything over about 15k, but at 12 and below, it’s tons of fun.

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#7

Why wouldn’t make much sense ? A weapon that is good in clan war is good because it’s good. Weapons not good enough with balance issues are not in clan wars because they bad. Logic, no?

And clan wars is not only about highest powerscore, there is some exception builds that shine at lower powerscores (Crickets is really good now with the new buff, on a steppespider, doing huge damage on range), and few other purple weapons build that you can find in the lowest ranks clan wars.

If all weapons were balanced enough to be viable in clan wars, would it destroy pvp battles or pve? No, it would just be balanced. Dont get me wrong, i dont mean upping purple weapons until they good enough to reach diamond. It’s just that they should have their places in the lower tiers, at least usable, wich mean more people would be able to play clan wars because it’s more affordable. What’s wrong in this ?

This is like saying i master Pulsar and i can finish people with 100 health left. Unpopular weapons are unpopular because they miss something, not because they harder to play. It’s not complicated to understand that you need to wait as much as you can do deal more damage with the assembler. But the weapon just sucks and you will be better putting your aiming skill in a more well rounded weapon than this. The charging time + the pre-shot time is what killing this weapon, you can just use something else like tsunamis, shot, and the time you were preloading fire with assemblers, the tsunamis would have it’s second shot already ready. Common.

It’s pretty obvious the game has a lot of underperforming stuff and the devs are trying to fix with the balance changes, but they dont do it properly sometimes as most of the community cant even try out all of the stuff to send good and competitive feedback.

1 Like
#8

bro posted this like the devs will read this or care :skull:

1 Like
#9

Nope, i’m trying to make people move their ass and share their suggestions using the site to make balance changes more accurate and faster.

1 Like
#10

so true

#11

Last time i did this it worked. Aegis prime got energy reduced and few other stuff. If all the community were doing this instead of remain passive and waiting for nothing to happen the game would become so much better for all of us, and it cost nothing to us for doing this.

#12

Don’t get me wrong, I am pretty sure I understand your position. I simply respectfully disagree with it. What you are suggesting is to simplify the game so that it takes away much of the complexity.

If every relic weapon was multitudes better than every legendary weapon, that would make sense. I like that it doesn’t make sense. I like that you had better research any part you want to buy or fabricate to make sure it’s actually worth the money and time. Free market baby!

It reflects how you can go out and buy a $40,000 car that is in every conceivable and measurable way better than certain $100,000 cars.

You want to save up and buy some horrendous Relic instead of fusing an excellent legendary? That’s on you! Lol!

I think you are wrong about the if it is good in Clan wars, it is good everywhere mindset as well.

You simply do not see certain structural parts, modules, movement parts, weapons, cabs Etc at lower power scores in PVP outside of bots. There are also certain metas that barely exist outside of Clan wars. The hover box, for example, was never really a thing at 8k.

I think this is why the developers wisely do not balance Parts based on Clan Wars performance. Apparently, they base it off of mid-level pvp, where most of the player base is.

I know Clan Wars players are under the impression they are the Elite of crossout, and maybe they are. In my humble little opinion, the only way developers are catering to Clan Wars players is in how to milk them for money.

The recent balance changes to all these structural parts hit Clan Wars players the most for obvious reasons. You guys have to chase the meta to be truly competitive. There are exceptions, but yeah…

Asking the developers to make all the parts make logical sense and to stop the vicious Nerf buff cycle is like asking them to take a voluntary pay cut with no benefits. Ain’t going to happen.

#13

Well that’s quite negative to think like that, maybe your right, they wont change their position. But believe me or not, games that trust their players, respect them, and do not make blatant money making packs and such buff nerf tactic, but just skins, and honest stuff, make way more money because they attract way more players and the game feel more healthy.

Just to let you know, from my experience in Gold ranking clan wars, relic weapons arent always the best at all. Even some of them like Jormungandr, Ripper (except in leviathan), are absolute trash (and so they do in PvP battle) There is a lot of tactics using purple and legendaries that are very strong in clan wars, but the amount of them is low compared to the amount of weapons implemented in the game.

1 Like
#14

I wish I did not feel that way about the money making tactics in this game, but I do. The proof for me is the very existence of cross crowns. No honest ethical game developer adds that kind of currency to a game unless they’re trying to rip off their own player base.

#15

A lot of small games tend to fall into this methods sadly, they prefer give up and use their actual player base. Well game making is business anyway it’s not like developpers are passionated players, they just want to be comfortable in their life, like everyone.

Anyway, if anyone want the game to move at least for the balance stuff so we have a bit better choices of builds in game and have more fun, please post your suggestions there, they do look at it ! Suggestion for Crossout future development

Even if you disagree with my balance list, just post yours in there, if they find multiple same requests here and here, they will change something.

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#16

Thanks for taking the time to post your ideas. I dont agree with all but I do agree with much.

All legendaries that dont have a relic upgrade should have a role to play in CW…that is balance.

I LOVE to see a few purples that are also worthy. We need to keep a few viable builds there for newer players. Crickets have no legendary or relic version, so they are a perfect fit for the role.

3 Likes
#17

A lot of my responses were thinking this was what you were meaning. Crickets were nerfed because they were a purple in CW. But then they nerfed them too hard.

I can see legendaries and relics being balanced for CW. Nothing lower.
Purples and below are for “most” players simply because they don’t want to do the extensive grind or spend money. (nothing wrong with that). These should be balanced around mission pvp. Yes some can still shine in CW.

There are videos of a top clan tearing peeps apart with the entire team using blue weapons. They also have one with all cyan, one with all purple etc. They did it to prove its not weapon balance keeping players from winning.

No matter how you balance, players with the best skills will still win over blobs without skills.

I am glad you suggest changes. Its good to have a decent convo about balancing. As I said before, I do agree with some of your ideas.

2 Likes
#18

Harvester

Improved the weapon’s physical model: now the upper part of the area that deals damage is not blocked by the static part of the model.

See they do listen to feedback :slight_smile: gg

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#19

Have you tested it? I looked very briefly but didnt detect any noticeable change.

#20

I totally agree with you. I just wrote a suggestion for this game to improve the parameters of the Thyrsus I weapon, because I love this weapon even though it behaves unpredictably in every other game. They always take it off my body right at the beginning of the game, even though it has durability like no other.