But the data shows it isn’t meta it has a 52% win rate in both. while other weapons tend to have higher. it is high for a epic weapon yes. but it is where it should be for its unique role as a weapon being the only one in its class.
Hell in Confrontation, it isn’t even top 10it has 28 users, and barrely enough rounds to class having enough data. That said if you want anything actually OP. look just havoe it at the 88 with a freaking 65% win rate or the Raijin with a freaking 71%
It’s called “whataboutism”.
We talk about TOWs and not any other weapon, no? Besides that - where exactly i’ve told that these weapons don’t deserve nerfs too? Whirl and raijin are OP, execs are only OP on hovers so hovers should be nerfed too. But that’s not the point.
It isn’t. Having 52% wn on relic build is worse than having 52% wn on epic build, since the price gap can be anywhere between 60k and 140k, not even counting fusing cost which can go in the 400k+ margin… beaten by a 400 price weapon.
Except you’re wrong. It’s basically “mean average vs average average” all over again.
Speaking globally, WN is typically not in the range of 0-100, but 42-58%. A majority of picks will have their WN in this 42-58% range.
So basically, you can view 58% WN as 100% and 42% WN as 0%. 58 - 42 is 16, so basically every 1% is akin to 16%.
A weapon that has more than 60% WN with a major chunk of players is something that’s so OP that should be nerfed immediately (e.g. raijin).
So, yes. That 2% margin is HUGE, especially for an epic grade weapon.
In clan wars the win rates are more tight nit all across the board compared to cc. The norm to me seems to be roughly 46% to 53%, you shouldn’t look at that. There are other factors involved too and you also got to factor in variance because the samples are fairly small.
Exactly!!! And i’ve described why it’s OP.
TL, DR but even more compressed: ~40k effective HP spiders/augers are defending their capture point and they use TOWs so they can’t be picked from far away distance, forcing a direct confrontation that’s almost impossible to win.
Makes sense, I’ve seen thisguyfux/thisguy cux use that strategy in pvp the other day. They likes they’ree ml 200s and they had some guy going around with the tow too making matters difficult.
So you are saying, don’t look at the data it means nothing? What? I am sorry but what?
AT least you are not saying “It is to high for an epic.” like the other guy. Epics are meant to be the main stay of weapons from 6k+, with legendary and relics being more specialized.
He also keeps moving the goal post any time you prove him wrong and point out there are more factors then he says. But then h e uses said factors and it just makes no sense.
I’ve already explained about WN margins here.
Ok, so the defensive weapon excels at being defensive? What is the problem here?
This isn’t me asking a retorical question or something. I am literally not understanding the problem you guys are apparently seeing. The math isn’t there to show it being a problem and the simple sollutions are ignored because they “waste effecency” that is the point really.
meta whoring only hurts you when fighting a weapon literally designed to be counter meta.
But that makes zero sense, what you are saying is not how math works like at all. And the fact it is epic means nothing, as for balancing purposes epic-relic are all concidered the same tier, that is just so people can’t be gods that can not be beaten with relics.
I’m saying just because something is like a few percentage points higher or lower should not be looked too far into to confirm your biases. Your looking at samples of just a few hundred games for each season so variance will be fairly large. Also player skill is more closely locked together in clan wars. You don’t see players losing like 40 games in a row in the nhl, the skill edges are more closely locked in has compared to cc where the skill gap is wider
The thing is there is only about 100 matches of each recorded, so swings like that are litterally impossible do to sample size.
You guys are telling me to look at the data in ways that the data doesn’t show. There are to few samples to say it is OP, if anything the samples there are say it is balanced towards higher skill use and might need a slight tone down maybe in its projectile life being reduced by a second or two.
That all said Looking at the data we have it is actually pretty well balanced. Granted I would like to have 300 more samples in both, but from the data there is is is where it should be as a counter meta weapon.
As one thing you guys seem to be forgetting is the tow is designed specificly to kill spaced armor and hovers. these are the two meta builds in CC and CW.
In standard 6v6/ 8v8 the tow is a lot less powerful as people play off meta and can easily counter it.
IF I am reading the data right, the problem with the tow isn’t the tow, it is the fact it counters the meta and does its job.
It IS. We’re talking about two different things there.
Let me make it easier for you to grasp.
0-100% WN is for /ALL/ weapons combined. It’s mathematically possible to have 100% winrate, but in reality, it isn’t. What if 2 of the same weapons will go against each other? One wins, one loses, 50% wn total.
For the high% we just take the highest WN that was achieved with a marginally big chunk of players and rounds. It was about 58% and was achieved by porcs.
For the low%? Well, we have to draw the line SOMEWHERE, right? Obviously a 16% WN weapon can’t be meta if there’s lots of 48-58% WN weapons. And we drew the line at 42% since it’s where number of rounds dwindles rapidly.
Anything that’s out the 42-58% range is either:
Is this easier to understand?
the Tow players finally get a buff and you all don’t like that. 
i’m glad they do something now besides what they didn’t do before,at least they are helpful.
Your literally playing chess with pigeons here, it don’t matter how much you prove your point it will fall on deaf ears. Your better able to articulate this into words that I so good luck, I’m gone!!
No, as that still isn’t how math works. especially with balance work in gaming. Keep this in mind I am a game dev, I have had to work on balance work for several PvP games, what you are saying makes zero damn sense to me on a math level.
the general speaking balance is you want no weapon above 55% and no weapon bellow 45% on win to loss rate. so the tow is where it should be from a mathmatical place on balance.
Because their point is based on a wrong interpretation of math and how video game balance works.
Aight, let me invite my mathematician friend real quick.
Wow, what a coincidende! Because i, along with several more people, develop our own game too. Based by your previous takes, you aren’t in the balancing departament, because what you say clashes with what a good game design should be.
(ahem) Triangle tracks catalina build that has a low-HP weapon on its roof (ahem)
It is called the bell curve and everything exists in a range, like kolliak said your gonna have a very narrow range for just about everything. The tow is at the top of that range at nearly 53%
You are using whataboutism right there but I will intertain.
those are OP, and that is something I was trying to point out earlier. but you said “That is whataboutism.” and disregarded it, so thank you for coming around ti it. Thsoe are OP.
Also don’t insult the art build 
it is a freaking art built. my only comp themed tow uses tank tracks and had the tow center low mounted with specialized placement to stop scorps.
And I don’t play CC and CW.
Ah there we go, that is why I wasn’t viewing it right, I Wasn’t looking at it like a bell curve. looking at it that way it is still in an acceptable area though. For what it is designed to be.
One thing both of you are missing even though it has been said many times.
the tow is a meta killer weapon, its redesign was designed to specificly deal with meta builds.
It has a tandum warhead that deals 150 impact damage then 150 explosive, which means if hte part it hits has less then 150 HP it goes through to the next part, and the next until that is done then explodes.
this hard counters spaced armor and most meta armoring techniques but is beaten I kid you not by brick or compact armor.
There is also how its damage works, with a fully buffed catalina, jackie, Jay, tow being able to do deal 1450 pure damage per shot but that brings you at min 11k PS. that is with as much legendary energy costing boosters as you can.
but a none buffed one in standard 9k match does on average 350 damage per hit with only a few minor boosts.
This means it is designed around higher PS being stronger. so it can take out its targets. A tow in CC isn’t really a threat, a tow in CW is dangerous, and you really should take that cut in either having a counter weapon, or if the stats show what I believe they show, use a whirle to destroy the projectile.
On a note, The best way to counter a tow from destroying you when it hits, is space out your explosives deep inside and use high health compact parts and bumpers. heavy builds counter it to the point it isn’t even worth shooting at them.
you can even see that in the poorly edited video. most the kills are either weakened by team mates, or hovers with juicy explosives.
The tow is a crit seeker meta counter. don’t give it a crit to seek.
Anyway from the bellcurve I can see one relics need some down tuning, and two MGs really need a buff holy crap the hitscan removal hurt them.
Granted I think the harmonizer will offset that, which is an annoying create a problem and sell the solution.
Seriously MGS really need a buff, those are the main thing that counters tow as they can destroy the projectile with little risk and can shred the launcher with ease.
I am guessing that is why the reaper is still meta as it can crit seek with its pierce and counter projectiles like the tow, as well as having the HP to survive things like raijin attacks.
Also, WN8 in WoT works like that.
<46% and 64%< is cut out because there’s no point of tracking, for example, 0.5% of players that are either that good or that bad? 99.5% of players will be inside of 46-64% range.
Same is for LoL and Dota 2. In LoL someone with 52% WN will be OP. In Dota 2, 58% WN will be also OP, much like here.
This dude probably either lied about working in the balancing departament or doesn’t work on MOBAs / MMOs.