I got suspicion that there are some capping mechanisms - eg. I see that adding 3d cooler is less of bonus than second on even different types.
I have tested it with seal-chill-chill and it seems second chill on cyclones does barely anything.
Also as for seal/shiver - I think the emphasis shoudl be more on play style - because of the added perk bonus I would not really see a Seal on a slow tanky build in a raid that is barely moving around.
I used the wrong word. I meant everything in this game is multiplicative aside from maybe radiators and coolers.
So radiators are addative and coolers are multiplicative. But a third radiator becomes multiplicative? That sounds about right.
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I believe all radiators are adative. Otherwise they would be completely broken
For example if the third radiator was multiplicative at 100% radiator mass. You would go from 10 shots with no radiators. To 20 then to 30 and then to 60 with the third radiator. I doubt that is the case. They are most likely just additive. Coolers on the other hand i have no idea but i will try my beat to teat it tomorrow. Or now since i canāt sleep
alright I think Iām on the right track now, Iām gonna maths so good, I need to convert all of my numbers into percentages with of seconds before doing maths and my answers come out perfect
firstly my results from the recordings
0.3 seconds wait time before cooldown starts
2.35 second of cooldown with no coolers
1.35 second of cooldown with 1 60% cooler
1.09 second of cooldown with 2 60% coolers
I need to convert the decimal place of these results into ms rather then per 60 frames 1/60 not 1/1000 which was confusing the hell out of me before when I tried to add things up anyway
2.35 becomes 2.58
1.35 becomes 1.58
1.09 becomes 1.15
2.58 seconds divided by 160% becomes 1.61 (pretty close to 1.58 which is what I recorded)
2.58 divided by 220% becomes 1.17 (pretty close to 1.15 what I recorded)
this means that coolers stack additively, their percentage is all added together and then used to figure out the new cooldown period. with this data Iām going to work out some real world results comparing coolers and radiators
Iām going to round the 2.58 to exactly 2 and a half second (2.5) since that is probably what is coded into the game and my recordings are likely just slightly off
default 14 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
1X R-2 Chill 21 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
2X R-2 Chill 28 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
3X R-2 Chill 35 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
4X R-2 Chill 42 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
1X Taymyr 14 shots 1.56 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
2X Taymyr 14 shots 1.14 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
3X Taymyr 14 shots 0.89 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
4X Taymyr 14 shots 0.74 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
now lets find out how many times we need to reload to = the the number of shots fired by the radiators
1.5X, 2X, 2.5X and 3X
1X R-2 Chill 21 shots 3 seconds total
1X Taymyr 21 shots 3.09 seconds total
2X R-2 Chill 28 shots 3 seconds total
2X Taymyr 28 shots 3.28 seconds total
3X R-2 Chill 35 shots 3 seconds total
3X Taymyr 35 shots 3.475
4X R-2 Chill 42 shots 3 seconds total
4X Taymyr 42 shots 3.72 seconds total
alright I think Iām pretty much done with the cooler vs radiator debate yeah they improved them after the update, but since they are additive and not multiplicative the more coolers you add, the worse the look vs radiators, honestly, the difference is not much but they are still worse in every way compared to radiators, apart from shotguns, 1 cooler is bad, stacking coolers is even worse, unless your doing a shotgun build, stay away from them for now
how would these results vary if coolers worked the way I imagine them working?
well if they reduced that half second delay I believe they would become better for tap firing
for example, right now the taymyr has a 60% cooling rate increase if it was a 30% wait time reduction and 30% cooldown increase the numbers would look more like this
those results would look like this
default 14 shots 2.5 second cooldown 0.5 second wait time
1X Taymyr 14 shots 1.92 second cooldown 0.38 second wait time
2X Taymyr 14 shots 1.56 second cooldown 0.31 second wait time
3X Taymyr 14 shots 1.31 second cooldown 0.26 second wait time
4X Taymyr 14 shots 1.13 second cooldown 0.22 second wait time
reducing the wait time like this would essentially let you āburst fire fasterā without overheating since your cooldown from burst firing starts allot sooner you can go BRUP BRUP BRUP instead of BRUUPā¦ BRUUP, you would loose some accuracy but shoot more bullets faster without overheating
their is a small issue, which is, gun fire rate if you have a slow firing auto cannon this will have no effect on you, for example, the rapier has a fire rate of 0.3 seconds, so anything below that and you are essentially firing full auto, so in this example if you have more then 2 taymyr on a rapier they would be useless, apart form increasing your cooldown (at that point a radiator would be better tho) with that being said, if you have between 1-2 taymyr, you could burst fire your weapon faster without it overheating since, well, the weapon starts to cooldown sooner after each burst fire
I donāt think it would be multiplicativee quite in that sense for radiators or coolers. . For example letās say we have a base damage of 100 and we have two buffs of 30% dammage.
For addative you just add both 30% buffs together for 60% and add that to 100 for a total of 160 dammage.
For multiplicative on radiators they would probably calculate more like how they calculate damage resistance in this game. The more buffs you have the less affective each following buff you stack gets. So if first you add a 30% buff, then the next buff of say 30% will lose 30% of its buff. So it would be more like 30%+21%, for a total of 51%. And if a third buff of 30% is added that buff loses half its affective Ness for only 15.5% on top of 51%.
You are correct? Probably. Your previous messages about radiators become multiplicative after 3 or more is kind of confusing me. Either way everything stacks adativly i tested it thoroughly
multiplicative calculations donāt always get exponentially better or worse But typically when your adding 60% to 100% it becomes 160% which is your new 100%
Example
100+ 60% = 160 + 60% = 256
Or
And i think this is what you are referring to
100 + 60% + (60%/60%) = 196
Adative is just
100 + (60%+60%) = 220
Also heres something confusing for you. Coolers stack addativly. But they get exponentially worse the more you stack
Because the math in it isnāt all addative it is multiplacative/devisive in its equation as well once you have a certain number of them on your build. If it is how you say it is in terms of being less affective after having x coolers on your build.
Part of its equation is like resistance calculations then.
Like if I stack an inverter on a cohort. And someone shoots me for 100 damage. First it calculates the first active resistance buff which is 30% from the inverter. And now you only take 70 damage. Then it calculates the 30% cohort buff. And now you only take 49 damage. Even though itās 60% resistance, it calculates to only be 51% resistance in the end.
Iām a bit confused about how coolers work with tap firing. I remember testing various combos with Stillwinds, and I swear adding a cooler allowed me to tap fire better than with just a rad. If I time it right, I can shoot forever. Was I sloppy in my testing? Or does cooling have a more noticeable effect on certain weapons?
You were sloppy. If you time it With with a rad as well you can shoot forever
I was adding a cooler to a rad. I guess I should compare two rads to one rad and a cooler, but I feel like I did at the time. Stillwind overheat is totally different now anyway.
Mate Iām so confused every time i read something you post. The reason coolers get exponentially worse is because of the half a second of wait time that you cannot avoid, with a radiator you only ever have to wait for this half a second of wait time a single time since you can fire longer and then cool down once.
With a cooler. To shoot the same number of bullets you need to wait for this half a second of wait time. Multiple times. Since you get less shots per cool down. That is why coolers get exponentially worse, it has nothing to do with how their stats are combine, their starts are combine like this
you have a 3 second cooldown, half a second of that cooldown is wait time that you need to wait for before the gun goes on cooldown, this half a second CANNOT be reduced at all, every time you want your gun to start cooling down you need to wait that half a second, so lets take that half a second 0.5 and put it over here, now we have 2.5 and 0.5 separated since they different parts of the cooldown
if by default you shoot 10 bullets with a 3 second cooldown
with 2 radiators at 100% stats you will shoot 30 bullets at 3 seconds of cooldown (reload tax is 0.5 then 2.5 seconds of waiting)
with a cooler, you will need to reload 3 times, that means waiting for 3x unavoidable half seconds, you can think of this like a reload tax, in this example, the reload tax is 1.5 seconds, this tax is unavoidable you cannot change it coolers do not effect it
if your cooler is also has 100% cooldown, this means you are reducing the part of the cooling that is not reload tax, IE you are reducing the 2.5 and the maths for this is ADDATIVE not multiplicative, you start with 100% of your reload time, and then you increase that reload speed by another 100% meaning your speed is now 200%, if 2.5 was 200% faster it would be 1.25
if 2.5 was 300% faster it would be 0.83 ok? this is how the game actually calculates additional coolers, I quite literally tested it and recorded the difference
so we take that 0.83 right? but we only shot 10 bullets, so we need to wait for 0.83 3 times, SO 3x0.83 = 2.5, but wait, we forgot about our reload tax as well, we need to wait for 0.5 3 times, that is where our 1.5 comes from, so 1.5 + 2.5 = 4
in this scenario you would need to wait 4 seconds for the cooler, and 3 seconds for the radiator to shoot 30 shots, and then reload completely
Actually coolers have different cool down rares compared to rates now for tao firing , give me a sec Iām going to set up macro that tap fires for me at a set interval. And then compare coolers vs tads for tap firing, you might he onto something
The reason coolers are bad is because. You need to wait for the half second before cool down starts, but with tap firing, you are going to be waiting for the half second regardless of if you are using a cooler or a radiator right. So at that point it might become a question of just. Why has the beat stats. So yeah you might be onto something actually
Vindicators and Stillwinds got me into improving my tap firing skills, since both get a big accuracy improvement when shooting in short bursts, and vindicators benefit from being able to surf a certain heat range. I hope I havenāt been tricking myself into thinking combining rads with coolers, but itās possible!
now for these tests, Iām going to use the shiver and RN seal, I will try to test both moving and stationery for both of these since they have movement effects as well, I would test tymyr and chill but I only have fused variants and their stats are almost identical 71% vs 73%
anyway to save some time these results will be based on shots fired before overheating since we are essentially testing how fast you can tap fire before the gun overheats in these situations, again the weapon in question is the rapier, other weapons may have different results
control test
full auto 14 shots
300ms 14 shots
325ms 14 shots
350ms 15 shots
375ms 16 shots
400ms 18 shots
425ms 22 shots
450ms 25 shots
475ms 35 shots
500ms 53 shots
525ms 89 shots
550 infinite shots
we now have what looks like a half life curve starting at 14 shots, the default max amount of shots you and shoot at full auto, going all the way up to shooting an infinite number of shots, lets see how coolers and radiators effect this curve
stationary
seal (70% efficiency)
full auto 24 shots
300ms 24 shots
325ms 24 shots
350ms 25 shots
375ms 29 shots
400ms 36 shots
425ms 61 shots
450ms 110 shots
475ms infinite shots
shiver (130% efficiency)
full auto 14 shots
300ms 14 shots
325ms 14 shots
350ms 15 shots
375ms 18 shots
400ms 26 shots
425ms 79 shots
450ms infinite shots
moving
seal (100% efficiency)
full auto 30 shots
300ms 30 shots
325ms 30 shots
350ms 31 shots
375ms 35 shots
400ms 54 shots
425ms 115 shots
450 infinite shots
shiver (85% efficiency)
full auto 14 shots
300ms 14 shots
325ms 14 shots
350ms 15 shots
375ms 17 shots
400ms 23 shots
425ms 42 shots
450ms 92 shots
475ms infinite shots
so these results are kind of interesting while stationary, at a higher fire rate, the seal wins until you shoot at at about 425- 450ms intervals so yeah a stationary seal can outperform a stationary radiator my about 25-50MS per shot, meaning you can shoot about 25-50ms faster if you shoot slow enough winks you need to be shooting as fast as you possibly can without causing the guns heat to raise too much, and you need to be, more or less perfectly still
one result I find interesting here is comparing 85% efficient cooler vs 70% efficient radiator, on paper you would assume the cooler is better, but for some reason, the radiator still wins in this scenario? I half expected to see these results reversed but shrugs idk
take these results as you will but, imo Iām probably still going to be sticking with radiators, you might be able to make an argument that, within the window of about 50ms coolers can be better if you are staying completely still but at that point, your comparing the difference between 61 shots vs 79 shots and 110 shots vs infinite shots. like cāmon, when you do you even tap fire more then 60 shots in a row for this to even make a difference in game?
different guns may have different results, if they for example have a longer cooldown time, or if they create more or less heat but unfortunately i cant test these results with every gun in the game because, I do not own every gun in the game