I generally visualize muppet as an old guy that is complaining about games he can’t play anymore because his hands just can’t work anymore. So instead of adapting he just comes into the forums and tries to insult people instead. Dear muppet that’s just how I think about you.
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If mupppet is who I remember, he def plays better than 99% of blue randoms, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him in a build that wasn’t shameful 
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I do sometimes just play horrible randoms just for fun… It’s a really guilty pleasure.
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Ok, indie wasn’t the right word, but how about “small”?
Targem only has a few dozen employees, and it doesn’t look like gaijin is really throwing much funding their way.
It just seems to me like people here sometimes have expectations that it’s a comparable company to Epic.
The thing most people ask for (balance patches) take the LEAST amount of efforts. It’s literally a matter of opening the game’s files with a text editor and changing some values. It’s not about manpower, it’s about will.
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Yeah, we have plenty of threads about balance, and you have spent years yelling about how you think the game should be balanced.
This thread isn’t about the game itself, but is about the mechanics of how they make money from the game to keep it going.
Maybe cry about balance in one of the hundreds of other threads about that?
Sorry to be rude, but if you won’t stay on topic I’m going to call you out for derailing my thread.
lmao, it’s very much relevant to the discussion. If Targem spent a 10th of the time the spend making trash gatcha content to make the game actually fun and good, it’d have a decent retention rate and could switch to a healthier, more honest business model.
(rewrote it after I accidentally removed it. it’s not exaaaaactly the original, but the spirit is more or less itnact)
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The business model is very much based around the balance of items
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So your answer is that their current F2P model, supported by premium subscriptions, packs, BPs, and crosscrowns is absolutely fine, but the only problem is that the game sucks?
And you don’t think that some of the ways the game disappoints you connect directly to their business model?
I assume you mean the idea that they make new items that are only available through cash OP so that people feel like they need to spend money to keep up?
And you don’t see how that (if it is true) would be a direct result of the F2P model?
If you believe the balance problems are an intentional part of their business model, than we absolutely need to be talking about the nuts and bolts of how they actually make money if that is ever going to be addressed.
Do neither of you see how that stuff is all connected? And how just complaining about balance does nothing to address the root causes of it?
The root cause is their greed and ability to read not just the balance but also the market in order to make money from people…
Just look at the Power Unit, it was extremely expensive, like old kapkan prices for an epic… then they brought out a back with the Power Unit and the pack didn’t even have weapon that the power unit would boost! They knew that the price was high and people would happily just spend real money for it instead, to sell or to use.
Ok, but think things through a bit further:
If the devs were not relying on pack sales, then things like that wouldn’t be happening, right?
If the game was perfectly balanced and easy for free players to get everything they wanted, how would they sell packs?
Anyway, this is my thread, so I’m allowed to say that “make the game good” is off topic and misses the point. If you don’t like it, go start your own thread to talk about balance (or post in one of the thousands of other balance threads).
I’m trying to talk about big picture stuff here, and really getting annoyed at how some of you insist on hijacking every single thread to cry about balance.
They can still sell packs, but the items shouldn’t be pack-exclusive like so many are. Let me go through the Tech Tree and see what is pack exclusive or locked behind a paywall:
Cabins -
- Duster
- Dusk
- Cockpit
- Tusk
- Blight
- Cerberus
- Hot Rod
- Torero
- Deadman
- Catalina
- Manitou
- Aggressor
- Kronos
- Fury
- Favorite
- Bear
- Jockey
- Howl
- Ghost
- The Call
- Steppe Spider
- Carapace
- Echo
- Savior
- Icebox
- Ermak
- Machinist
Weapons -
- Tackler
- Vindicator
- Stillwind
- Joule
- Starfall
- Nagual
- Elephant
- Locust
- Flute
- Snowfall
- Yongwang
- Athena
- Yokai
- Acari
- Varun
- Lacerator
- Remedy
- Kapkan
- King
- Grenadier
- Astraeus
- Adapter
- Thyrsus
Modules -
- Power Unit
- Interceptor
- Daze
- Pegasus
- Golden Eagle
Movement -
- Stallion
- Claw
- Sabbath
- Atom
- Tank Track
- Goliath
- Icarus IV
- Gerrida
Here are more items which are locked behind factions which no longer exist or not allow crafting by all players, some can’t be crafted directly or indirectly, some part of events -
- Jannabi
- Kami
- Griffon
- Muninn
- Omnibox
- Huginn
- Hadron
- Nova
- Beholder
- Master
- Hippogriff
- Yokozuna
- Cohort
- Guardian
- Gungnir
- Nothung
- Miller
- Arothron
- Parser
- Leech
- Therm
- Median
- Avalanche
- Heather
- Nest
- Trombone
- Thresher
- Gravastar
- Trigger
- Destructor
- Assembler
- Spike
- Toadfish
- Tempura
- Charybdis
- Annihilator
- Yaoguai
- Vulture
- Emily
- Corvo
- Summator
- Argument
- Kaiju
- Enlightenment
- Flock
- Contact
- Rift
- Argus
- Omamori
- KA1
- KA2
- Verifier
- Iris
- Bootstrap
- Thor
- Odin
- Camber
- Gun-mount
- Array
- Sleipnir
- Bigram
- All Rotors
So that’s every p2w item in the game essentially. If no one paid then it would not exist in-game.
They could easily make all these items craftable and still sell the pack. People buy packs to get extra quick coins at a reduced cost of just outright buying coins, are you saying that no one would buy packs if things weren’t completely pack-only?
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Pay to play is probably more accurate, as not much (some) of those items on those lists is utilized by the META that tends to dictate the most wins.
The developers should identify the META and its composition, and put those components on a workbench for everybody to have free access to. I also think they should rework the faction builds to include the META and popular player exploits that the developers have no intention of fixing.
I think that would improve the new player experience by minimizing player frustration and the feeling of destitution they might have when looking at the price tag on some of those items. It would also expose aces to the peculiar Crossout logic and methodology of building successful vehicles.
There really isn’t anything wrong with the monetization scheme they currently have in place, on the surface. It’s the BS they do just beneath the surface that isn’t really fooling enough gamers to be as profitable as it could be.
A good hustle can make everybody happy.
I think packs are a ripoff either way, but even I can see they would have very little value if they didn’t contain items that couldn’t be crafted.
Having said that, I do think the pack model is a source of many problems for the game. However, making packs less worthwhile is definitely not going to help them sell packs.
You’re arguing for them to improve their business model by decreasing their revenue. Not generally a good plan, unless there’s something else being added to replace that revenue.
Also, can I point out that a large number of the supposedly P2W items you listed are currently priced less than craftable items on the market? Anyone could just craft something that’s currently selling high and buy a few of those items. They’re not really being hidden behind a paywall, unless no one is selling them on the market.
I’m extremely stoned and somehow edited over my previous comment, so this discussion is going to look like a mess, but huh…
You’re the one who keep bringing their studio’s size as if it was relevant. I’m telling you with “a few dozens” devs you can run a good game. With 1 dev you can run a good game.
Yes, the state of the game is a result of their economic model. We agree on that. They have MORE THAN ENOUGH work force to make this a good game, but they chose to not do so. I’m not “crying about balance”, I’m just not taking the excuse you keep making for them. There are games on Steam dev’ed by 1 person, sold less than 5$ (but not f2p), that have way more players than XO, are way more fun, and updated more often.
But regardless of its economic model, a game that suck won’t attract players. The game, rn, sucks. Because of its economic model, yes. Because Targem spends 100% of its dev time on premium shit and 0% on making the game good. But if you simply change the economic model and don’t change the game, who’s gonna buy? And if you take away the BPs which are 95% of the devtime we get, what do you do with all that time anyway? Make the game good, balance it, make it fun.
You can’t separate the business model from the game’s qality, they are intertwined. Every game with a trash business model sucks, period. The suckiness is what drives the sales in these games.
Anyway, I think everybody here aknowledges the fact that reworking their business model and making the game good isn’t Targem’s intention.
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I don’t think you are understanding my point at all.
I am not saying they’re too small to make the game good. I’m saying they are too small to take an 8 year old game and make it popular. Even a bigger company would struggle with that.
And unfortunately, just making something good does not mean it will be popular. That’s just now how the world works. They do not have the marketing muscle to make it into a bit mainstream game, no matter how good it is.
And I’m not trying to save the game from economic ruin, I am merely trying to have a conversation about how the business model they have chosen is the direct cause of some of the things you hate about the game.
It’s just really boring to keep having the same conversations about how the devs won’t balance the game the way you want because they are greedy/stupid/incompetent/whatever. It’s been years of that, and I just wanted to approach things from another angle. Unfortunately, many on the forum are stuck in a groove of pounding out the same posts over and over and over.
They are on Steam, just like everybody else, including smaller outfits that seem to be much more popular.
Your probably right though; this thread reads about like their reviews always have, where even the “positive” reviews are tempered with “It’s fun, but this game’s predatory marketing model sucks, and is not consumer friendly.” We’ve all read that already, I suppose. Mostly.
This game still sucks for the same reasons, and it’s specifically the clumsy marketing, and the creepy consumer manipulation they awkwardly perform. Their problem is still the same, so the conversation is still the same.
Here in the USA, we have been masterfully selling complete garbage, and even poison, to the world (made in China) for a very long time. So, as an American, I know there is a better Hustle than what Targem is pushing, because I know we absolutely can sell crap at a premium, and make our customers so happy that they apparently can’t get enough, and are actually dying from it. Not to mention fooling the world into believing that Canadians and Mexicans are not Americans…but Hawaiians are? That’s marketing, baby 
IMO, they just need to refine their technique in a few areas, and then cancel some of the other more devious crap they do, then advertise. As it is they can’t capitalize on advertisement, because it just causes more people to realize this game has too much stupid, and not enough fun. All they accomplish is expanding their bad reputation.
They don’t need to re-invent this wheel…just buff it, and nerf the stupid.
And I keep telling you, you’re wrong. Try to get your game advertised on PewDiePie’s channel and tell me how much it costs. Marketing = publisher. Gaijin is not an “indie” or “small” or “poor” publisher, period. They’re dumping truckloads of money on XO because the fragile people who dump 2k/year on this game make it a profitable venture.
How much exactly do you think that cost them? And how many years ago now was that?
And how much do you think larger mainstream companies spend to promote their games?
And again, has any 8 year old game suddenly become popular at that point in its lifespan?
I have to make small talk with strangers at work, and if I find out the client plays video games, we’ll talk about that. I have yet to meet anyone who has even heard of Crossout, other than the one client who first turned me on to it. It’s a pretty obscure game by any metric.