Downgrading items (suggestion)

Discussion
1

Example: I like the Fin Whale, but I don’t need its perk. After the energy system rework, it’ll use 3 energy points. I’d like to be able to have it without the perk, and using 2 energy points.

Let’s say the legendary engines could be ‘downgraded’ to use 2 energy, with removing the perk as a tradeoff. Similarly, the epic engines’ energy consumption could be reduced to 1 energy, while removing the perk as well (or to zero in the case of the Hot Red).

If removing the perk isn’t enough, maybe some of the parameters could be nerfed. In that case, I’d like to be able to choose what to nerf. Possible solutions:

  1. Let us choose 2 out of the 4 parameters to nerf: Tonnage, Mass limit, Speed, Power.
  2. Or group these into 2 sets: a choice to either nerf the Tonnage and Mass limit, or the Speed and Power. But this option would be less flexible, and if we’re already customizing an item, let’s give the players more freedom of choice, while ensuring sufficient balance through the nerfs. So option no. 1.
  3. Optionally, also reducing the PS at the expense of reduced HP. By halving both values, to make it simple. Or maybe only reducing the PS to the value of the corresponding item in the lower tier, with reducing the HP by the same percentage? E.g., reducing the Fin Whale’s PS to 275 would result in reducing its HP to 333. Which is less than the Oppressor’s, but hey, it’s your choice. Players would be able to choose if they want this downgrade in addition to downgrading the above-mentioned parameters. It wouldn’t be a problem because the PS downgrade is tied to a separate tradeoff.
  4. It’s worth considering that perhaps choosing to reduce the PS would necessarily involve the downgrading of the other parameters as well. So that one couldn’t only choose to have the PS reduced on multiple items (along with the HP), and thus get a substantial advantage, say, in Confrontation. Or for seal clubbing. For example, someone wants to reduce the Fin Whale’s PS, at the expense of reduced HP, but they also have to choose 2 of the other 4 parameters to be reduced, and only then does the “Downgrade” button turn white (grayed out until the choices are ticked off).
  5. I can accept for (some) of the reduced parameters to be lower than those of their lower-tier counterparts, like in the above example with the Fin Whale and the Oppressor. I’m not saying that’s what I want, but it could be an interesting tradeoff.
  6. What about downgrading upgraded items? Should it be possible? With preserving the upgrades, it could be OP. Similarly, upgrading downgraded items seems like a sneaky way of circumventing the balancing measures in this system. So perhaps only base items culd be used. But if so, let’s allow players to use upgraded items, such as those they got from unlocking BP levels, but using such an item would remove the upgrades, treating them as base items for the purpose of the downgrading. This way, they wouldn’t have to buy or craft a base version of an item they already have. And it’s always good business for Gaijin to remove upgrades, such as during that unfusing event in the past. So why not let players remove upgrades on a daily basis in this way, especially seeing as downgraded items couldn’t be sold anyway. Turning one untreadable item into another, and weakening it to boot. I’m sure Gaijin wouldn’t mind, in fact, that’s what makes Gaijin happy.
  7. Only 1 item would be needed for downgrading (unlike 2 or 3 for upgrading). Because, come on, we’re breaking stuff here. However, there could be required some special item or workbench for the downgrading process. Such as a “Downgrading Toolkit,” or a downgrading event workbench, listing selected items (but not specific downgrade sets, because that would be too limiting).
  8. Would downgrading be permanent or reversible? For example, if someone chose the wrong parameter(s) to be downgraded, or doesn’t want to have three Fin Whales, using 3, 2 and 1 energy, respectively (read below). This way, downgrading could be treated like ‘tuning down’ an engine’s parameters - to be restored to their original values at any time. And it would only cost one Downgrading Toolkit, which would be used up in the proces (but reversing the downgrading would be free, I hope so). This way, players wouldn’t have to sacrifice their upgraded items they received from battle passes they paid for (they would be able to restore them as upgraded). The question is - how much extra money would Gaijin want to make by adding this mechanic to the game? Is it enough to just sell us some Downgraidng Toolkits, or go all the way and have us use up items for permanent downgrading?
  9. The downgraded item’s tier wouldn’t change - or should it? I mention lowering of item tiers in this comment figuratively, I guess because such downgrading feels like bringing an item to a lower tier.

And what if the legendary engines could be downgraded even more, to use just 1 energy point?

Firstly, why would someone want to do that? Perhaps they like their legendary engine’s sound but don’t need the fancy perk or parameters.

Secondly, how to find the right balance in terms of the tradeoffs? The legendary engines are bulkier and heavier, which alone would be some disadvantage. If necessary, maybe the parameters would have to be nerfed further, such as having to choose 3 out of 4 of those to nerf. I’m sure the values of these parameters could be set in a balanced way as well - if necessary, that is.

I like the accelleration the Fin Whale gives my car with 2 Omnis and 2 Atoms. Somehow, this car only reaches 80-81 km/h with the Golden Eagle, instead of 90 km/h - it must be a bug. I upgraded a Razorback in preparation for the reworked energy system, but the Fin Whale is noticeably better in terms of accelleration. And I prefer its sound.

I don’t want this mechanic to be OP. I just like the Fin Whale a lot and would like to be able to use it without the perk, and without having to use a more powerful generator for an engine whose perk I don’t need. Yes, to keep my PS lower, but by implementing this idea in a balanced way.

I got this idea after Scumbaggins69 suggested in the general chat (PC) a turbo module that added a turbo sound for our vehicles (which itself is a great idea). I then suggested checking out the engine sound option, and we then tested in a custom brawl what others hear. It also turns out this setting is global, i.e., the player either hears all cabin-engines or all engine-engines. So I’d like for it to be changed so that we could actually hear the engine sound others set for their vehicles. Including such a possible turbo sound module (what a cool idea). Hearing others’ chosen engines would add more variety to the game. And it would be required for Scumbaggins69’s idea to be implemented.

This downgrading mechanic could be used for other items. Maybe not all items, or not all tiers (such as relics), or some specific items could be excluded, for balancing reasons - e.g., I’d prefer for the Caucasus not to be included. Similarly, the Yeti or the Omamori could be excluded as well. And the generators - because that could be broken, and also, in the reworked energy system, they would already be arranged in a more progressive way, and with more flexibility of choice in terms of their energy value and durability.

Such a mechanic could be useful for wheels. Say, someone wanted a set of Bigfoots mostly for the looks or handling, but didn’t need the perk or parameters. It’s a fun idea, but definitely needs careful preparation so as to ensure proper balance.

At this time, I can’t think of other item types this system would be fitting for, other than engines and wheels. It may be good for weapons to be locked in their particular tiers, owing to the specific ways they work - such as do we want a special Clarinet, or one using less energy, or would it be OP? And how do we even begin to balance a weaker Incinerator that uses 5 energy? And movement parts other than wheels may need to stay in their current tiers because the way they work makes them powerful enough, even with reduced parameters. E.g., the way the Gerrida moves may have to be restricted to the epic tier and up. And definitely the hover engines. Including any item in this system would have to be analyzed and tested in-depth.

Speaking of - has anyone upgraded the new hover engine? Is it worth it? I bought 8 for 192 and 196 coins (in addition to the one I got from the crate), but now the price is soaring - perhaps people started upgrading like crazy. Could someone please post a vehicle with upgraded ones on the exhibition? Or should I wait for an upgrading event? And do we allow downgrading of the legendary hover engine, since it’d still end up as an epic one anyway?

(I couldn’t find the Suggestions section. I seem to remember it disappeared with changing the forum engine.)

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by doing that youre just giving a disadvantage to people using the item the intended way

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How am I giving a disadvantage to them? The idea is to get a very different engine. Like when you buy a cheaper graphics card with some features factory-locked. It’s a slower card, but enough for what I need, and I don’t have to overpay. And I get the latest tech and better power efficiency.

Others can use a fully-specced Fin Whale and spend 3 energy if hey need the complete set of features, while I only need the accelleration and cool engine sound, and I don’t want to spend 3 energy. I’m cheap, but if the devs give me a way to custom-nerf this expensive legendary engine, I’m willing to spend 2500 coins or more for what is worth maybe 600 coins, at most. I get the fun, and Gaijin gets my coins.

So what disadvantage is there to those using the default Fin Whale? Could you elaborate? And did you read the whole comment? It’s a comperehensive solution, I believe I covered everything. Show me what I missed. :slightly_smiling_face:

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yes i read the whole comment, but the comprehensive solution doesnt cover item perks.

the point of items having special perks is to give them an advantage in a specific situation. Many builds will not use this perk, so if you allowed them to trade the perk for an energy reduction then youre making people pay 1 energy just to use the item as intended.
i think this is a disadvantage, to have to pay up despite probably basing your build off this one item alone and its special usage.

otherwise i wonder how nerfing parameters on items would go in crossout, but i imagine it is either almost useless or the players find some way to exploit it

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The idea starts with getting rid of the perk of the Fin Whale when I don’t need it. And it’s not about all items. Just engines and wheels, for now. Because some other items could be OP with this treatment.

Yes, which I don’t need in the case of the Fin Whale, at least for now. And it’s not just my sentiment.

If I understand right - you mean to say that someone spending 2 or 1 energy on a Fin Whale will have an advantage over someone spending 3 energy on a Fin Whale? But the downgraded Fin Whale would:

  1. Have no perk - that’s what the idea starts with.
  2. Possibly have its parameters, such as the bonuses to the vehicle’s tonnage, mass limit, speed and power nerfed. I didn’t specify how much, whether by 50% or whatever, because that would have to be determined in the balancing process. Tested and tweaked until it’s balanced.

And if someone needs the perk, they’d probably be taking advantage of all the features, such as the bonuses to the vehicle’s tonnage, mass limit, top speed and power. So they’d be paying 3 energy for a full suite fo features they need. That doesn’t put them at a disadvantage.

Yes, they pay up the 3 energy, because they needed this items special usage - if you mean the Fin Whale’s perk, and they get the full worth of the energy spent in return.

While someone doesn’t need the perk, and is willing to have 2 or 3 out of the 4 parameters nerfed, in exchange for lowering the energy consumption. It’s more flexibiity, because they’ll spend that energy on something they do need. Everyone’s happy because they get exactly what they want from this engine. As long as this solution can be properly balanced. I don’t want a broken OP item. I want a Fin Whale customized to my needs. And someone who needs the perk will spend 3 energy to have a Fin Whale the way they need it.

You’re contradicting youself here - by saying that someone wants the Fin Whale (or another item) mainly for its perk, spending the energy required and taking full advantage of its features, and they’re at a disadvantage. According to what you wrote, they’re not. You start the sentence by calling it a disadvantage, to then describe what is not a disadvantage in any way.

  1. Only a small category of items. That would have to be determined with balance in mind. And in case I didn’t make it clear enough - I don’t believe that weapons should be included.
  2. It’s about nerfing the parameters one doesn’t need. But it’s not ultimate fine-tuning. E.g., someone is willing to only nerf tonnage, but they have to choose another parameter, such as power, because there’s no other way to get an energy sueage reduction. Example:
    a) For -1 energy, disabling the perk and choosing 2 parameters to be reduced by 33%.
    b) for -2 energy, disabling the perk and choosing 3 parameters to be reduced by 50%.
    I have no idea if these are the right values, or if this example has to be improved. It’s just a tentative example to demonstrate how it would work.
  3. It’s customizing based on one’s needs. Whether reversible or not, the choice would be made by the player.

Yes, very much so. I completely agree. Such an item would be useless in terms of the parameters I don’t need, such as the perk, for example. Or most of the mass limit bonus. But I’d still get the accelleration bonus, and the cool engine sound. :slightly_smiling_face:

That’s what the balancing process is for (to be conducted by the developers). As I stated repeatedly in the suggestion. Which I had to post on this forum because I can no longer access the suggestion form here. Maybe it’s still vailable, but not linked. Which is why you get to read what is still a general idea. You’re telling me of a potential for balancing issues in a general idea, while I keep repeating over and over again that balance is key for it to work. Everyone knows this, including the developers. I could spend days or weeks thinking this through in minute details, calculating the parameters, but I don’t want to spend that much time, especially if this idea gets rejected. And it’s the developers’ job. :wink:

One more thing: players would probably start downgrading their engines en masse, an ‘arms race’ of sorts, where those that don’t need the full set of features, but aren’t downgrading, would feel at a disadvantage. Too bad, but Gaijin would exploit it to make more money. But it’s the same with upgrading, where we get a little extra edge by spending coins. But you were referring to those that need the full set of an engine’s features, so this doesn’t apply to them. And how much could a “Downgrading Toolkit” cost? Gaijin would want to make it desirable, but not overly expensive. 200 coins or less?

Your PC profile is hidden. I don’t know who you are, if you’re serious or not. Or how long you’ve played and at which stage you are. Or if you’re poor because you’re lazy. I haven’t spent any money on Crossout, but I grind a lot, won 2 long BPs in MHH’s Twitch streams, I’m end-game and I want my stuff to be customized to my needs - but only if it’s balanced. And this is an idea to make the game more fun for me. I spent some 4 hours or more composing the original suggestion, and now another hour or more writing this reply. Are you taking sneaky pot shots with that hidden profile of yours? The only reasons to hide one’s profile are for WC (to hide the vehicle from potential opponents) and building contests (in the case of popular builders that don’t want their ideas to be copied and submitted for an easy win). After that recent update, hiding one’s profile looks even worse, so it’s best not to do it unless for WC or building art, or you’ll look like a troll. I don’t know if you have a Fin Whale or not, or if you care about customizing engines at all, or maybe you don’t need any of what is being suggested and it’s easier for you to dismiss the entire idea so that no one would have an advantage over you just because you don’t care to get into the guts of your car and do some tweaking (and spend up to 200 coins on a “Downgrading Toolkit” in such a new ‘arms race’).

I posted this idea here mainly in hopes of getting it to the developers, and it would be them, as well as Gaijin, to ultimately decide if they want to sell us such a new feature. :wink:

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speaking of paying to have your parameters nerfed - at that stage you may as well introduce new items that have the desired specifications in the first place, instead of keeping customization behind an even higher paywall for all other players.
as for trading perks for a reduction in energy cost, not only are you stripping the only unique thing from the engine (apart from op stats), but you could also just let players trade energy cost to get the perk instead of the other way around, and call it an additional upgrade instead of an actual perk.

in whatever scenario though, such features would ultimately bring nothing more than ‘p2w’ or rather pay to be able to build. im sure targem would love the idea of adding more things for people to pay for, but i think adding more items or some minimal free customization would be more benefitial

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no. this isnt needed, just use the engine the way its meant to be used, as an engine. perk or not.
theres tons of weapons/modules/wheels/cabins in crossout what arent useful with their perks in certain situations but people find ways to make them work. a system like what your suggesting would be far to complex and complicated to implement something like that in. not to mention it would really effect the balance of the game and not for the better. devs arent going to take time to put in such a complex mechanic into the game. if they did this for one part, then they have to do it for others and effect the balance of other parts of the game which is not doable. it CAN be made possible but that would take ALOT of time and whatnot to come up with a good solution to and incase you cant tell… the devs dont care about that.

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