As it stands one of the biggest limitations to omni wheels is that they get almost zero acceleration while rotating no matter which direction(s) your trying to move in. They only accelerate while moving in one of their 8 directions without any rotational input. This is a pretty big limitation and one of the biggest issues holding back omni wheels from being a more competitive movement option. Please allow them to tap into more of their acceleration while rotating, thanks!
It’s def a drawback. But they can’t be good at everything.
I wouldn’t say they are good at everything, they under perform almost every other movement type in at least 1 facet. They have a worse turning radius than wheels and tracks, they change directions slower than legs and hovers. The only plus they have (without over complicating the argument and evaluating weight/durability/tonnage ratios) is that they can move in 8 directions like legs and hovers, but have a higher top speed.
Or you could just build with omnis correctly and have a more agile build than hovers… ::shrug::
Part of the problem has always been the wheels are more realistic than people realize and no one builds with them right. I’ve made a few working builds using the theory and it’s quite nice. TBH I find it a bit too twitchy at times.
Omni wheels don’t really work like mecanum wheels are supposed to IRL, especially since they likely wouldn’t work at all on loose dirt or uneven terrain. They also don’t even spin in the right direction for certain maneuvers, even if their in-game orientation is different. Omni wheels are actually coded to move in a particular way and their spin is simply a visual effect, like how meat grinders used to be vs how they are now. Even w/ ideal placement, omni wheels still don’t maneuver as well as they should be able to, so I am also of the opinion that they still need some improvement.
You can think as you wish. At one point I had a build up with several hundred likes just demonstrating the theory of the placement. It’s been used and known by PC players at least for a bit. I can dance around a hover using omnis -in a proper configuration- without any issue, so I don’t understand why you need them buffed I suppose is what I’m ultimately saying.
Hey though, if you do get one of my favorite move parts buffed I’m not going to complain
Ya, that was kinda the impression I was getting too. Pretty much the opposite of what the OP says is what I experience. It’s like reading a post from an alternate universe. Omni Wheel acceleration (in every direction) is pretty great, IMO. Personally, I like them better than hovers.
Is it because they are using too many of them or something? I was planning on getting a third set. Maybe that’s not a good idea?
Maybe if they trash talk them some more it will drive the price down and I can get’em cheaper (I’m getting them anyway).
Six omni wheels is fine. When u start to go over six speed becomes an issue.
The guy is talking about acceleration when turning, of which omni wheels have none.
Well I think it greatly depends on the number of wheels and weight of the build. Omni wheels perform better at lighter weights and increasingly poorer at heavy weights. They also depend very heavily on power to make them do certain things. Obviously if you have a heavier build you will accelerate slower, but at a certain power/acceleration point they become incapable of accelerating while rotating. Maybe this is “realistic”, idk, but for a game as unrealistic in many ways as Crossout is, I think think this makes for a bad* movement part experience. Also I’m not even talking heavy builds with 20k mass, a simple 6 wheel build at about 15k mass (medium) has these acceleration issues. You can only get past them as really light weights using up to 4 wheels and a colossus or oppressor engine, while keeping the build between 8-12k mass. (in my experience)
Edit: Actually I do recall making a Beholder omni build with 6 wheels and a colossus engine around 15k mass that had minimal acceleration while rotating, but no where near as good as a lighter version I built last night using 3 wheels at 8k mass (also on a Beholder) and no colossus engine.
the worst problem as with the tracks is that you can’t accelerate and turn at the same time, you need to go straight and then turn
Here’s the thing, each axis has its’ own acceleration curve and speed value up to the maximum of the build, blah blah blah blah blah…
Anyway, what this means is that each change in vector requires its own acceleration point. There is a -finite- pool of power in the build and each one of those acceleration points will try to suck some of that power down.
The three of course being: Turn - forward/back - strafe
If I put just one input in (let’s say forward), 100% of my power goes to -just- that being accelerated. So I’m going W and then I want to turn… now… my turn -because the wheels do not change angle- is determined by differential acceleration between the wheels. One side either drops acceleration or goes in reverse while the other continues at power. Why is that important? Because now I have -2- points of acceleration sucking from my power pool instead of 1. Unlike wheels which change their angle and use friction to turn or hovers which simply change the thrust direction in a mostly frictionless experience and don’t have to use two directions of acceleration to turn or three to strafe (neither do legs because they simply change angles as well). Omnis, tracks, and augers all require 2-3 power draws to do more than go in a single direction. This is the first thing.
The second is that -each- of those accelerations is calculated separately so far as I can tell… so… if I am travelling forward at 100kph and want to strafe… .my strafe is at 0, I now have to accelerate to 100 kph in a strafe. It doesn’t matter that I was going 100kph forward because there’s no transfer of my velocity because there’s no change in the vector of the force pushing me without an -additive- power input.
Which is all to say that… instead of -reactively- driving omnis, you need to -proactively- drive them. You plan your attack runs and you cease to care what or who is in the way because you need to pre-accelerate turns and strafes by a few heartbeats to make them work. You can’t be in a constant reactive-driving situation otherwise yes… the physics of a drivetrain that does not ever change angle and ergo sucks more power -to simply turn- will screw you every time.
As with augers, you can do some interesting things by adding strafe to your turns. Strafing the opposite direction of your turn can swing your rear around, while strafing in the direction of your turn can be useful for keeping a target in your sights while circling.
These effects may depend on your layout, so experiment and see what works for you.
You showing a skeleton moving well with omnis does little to address the objection most have, which is how they work on high PS/heavy weight builds. And while comparing real world physics to gaming ideas can be fun on a mssg board, there are 2 problems:
We know Crossout does not always follow real world physics
Gamers are concerned about in game performance only
In my opinion, hovers should be for lighter weight builds that are agile and quick. Omnis should be agile and quick at medium weight builds. Grinders should have good acceleration with heavy builds.
Hovers have height advantage over every part, still have respectable top speed, can bounce over dogs, and are almost impossible to flip.
Omnis would have highest speed for omni directional movement parts but also sits the lowest and is susceptible to flipping.
Grinders sit at medium height, have melee damage (would be nice to see dmg buff), and speed matches with heavy cabs.
Bigrams are versatile. They sit higher than most. They can strafe, but at lower speeds than the other options. They have huge hit boxes. They work respectably at various weights.
This is exactly it, I personally do not care about perfect realism. Hovers and Mechanical legs are already stretching that as is.
While Red_Widows point was interesting, and does match up with what I see in the game, it doesn’t make up for the fact that rotational power drain is extremely inconvenient if you want to run omni wheels on anything that isn’t a light build.
I personally don’t mind that I need to pre-accelerate multiple directions, in fact I’ve learned to use diagonal movement as my primary method because it allows me to the most agility. If you hold 2 core movement directions and are going full speed in 2 axis, when you let go of one direction your already full speed and can change your direction lightning quick.
But back to the main point, and my only real issue with omni wheels, realistic or not. Not being able to accelerate while rotating is a crippling weakness compared to other similar movement parts.
If Omni wheels worked the same as real Mecanum wheels, they would only work in multiples of 4 diagonal each other and would stop working if one got shot off. Also, like Shuriken said, Mecanum wheels only work on smooth surfaces. The game Omni wheels are much better than real life because you can get around on 2 of them much of the time.
I’m not sure how much better Omni wheels can get without becoming overpowering. They already have tracklike grip and work with Golden Eagle. There has to be some downsides to using them. If you are having acceleration problem, fuse a Golden Eagle for power this weekend and maybe fuse your cabin for power as well.
I find omnis work well on things as heavy as Hadron and nova. You just need tonnage engines with cabs that heavy. Echo starts to get a bit too slow even with a tonnage engine, and anything heavier than that is just a bad idea.
Cabs fused for power are definitely key. Like if your your echo is fused for power it’s good for omnis. Otherwise echo is too slow. My mass fused Hadron seems ok enough, I figure if it had power it would be better though.
Yeah, the Hadron is just like the Beholder. It has massive amounts of power whether it is power fused or not. I would like to get a power fused Hadron so I can run a nice Hadron hover with a Hot Red, but I am not willing to re-fuse the Mass Mass hadron because that would destroy its spider potential.
And if you’d bothered to actually read everything I’ve said. You’d understand that it’s been applied to multiple full size builds and that one at one point had several hundred downloads because it was quite effective. The movement placement works just fine under load.
The video is specifically to show the placement theory and the difference in movement. That’s it.
To add, yes… sometimes crossout doesn’t follow real world physics (far less frequently than you’re trying to imply)… but more often than not, the playerbase would fail fifth grade for not understanding how simple machines work. Full stop.
Omni wheels are not competitive at high PS and top CWs.